Discussion
I'm getting so annoyed watching the program on Zimbabwe on Ch 4 now (8.25). Blair really is just as bad as Mugabe - he said at a Labour conference that he would deal with people like Mugabe, but what has he done? Bugger all.
He should be ashamed of his total weakness and feebleminded attitude towards someone like Mugabe who is running circles around him.
just finished watching the program.Program proves to me ALL politions are pathetic.They have no sence of morals,they only act for self preservation.We only went to war in kosovo,crotia, serbia as was too close to home for comfort.We only went to war in iraq for oil the list goes on .Why are we not doing anything in zimbabwe,we have nothing to gain no oil not very close to home etc.
Yup. All talk and no trousers. Flip side is that it is hard to see what a UK Prime Minister could do to put real pressure on a lunatic like Mugabe. As with suicide bombers, Mugabe is not susceptible to the usual pressure points that another state can squeeze. He doesn't care that his population starve, in fact it plays into his hands as he can favour the ZanuPF supporters with food aid and weaken the Ndebele and MDC. International isolation won't bite until South Africa finally shows some backbone, and there's sod all chance of that as Thabo Mbeki is a waste of space. Most of Mugabe's political moves for the last three or four years have been motivated purely by increasingly desperate attempts to stay in power. In order to cling on he has trashed his economy (initially by capitulating to blackmail from the War Vets who've now become sort-of supporters), corrupted the police and the courts (the army having been bent for years), stoked up the land "reform" programme. F*cking pathetic that it took the plight of the white farmers to get any of this to world attention, and also absolutely disgraceful that the UK media focussed entirely on the plight of the whites without looking at how it fitted into the bigger (and pretty simple)picture in Zim. By making it look like a black versus white issue, the UK media played directly into Mugabe's hands and allowed him to paint the whites as foreign-supported counter-revolutionaries, and to tar anyone within Zim who disagreed with his policies as stooges of the international white conspiracy. He's persecuting about 50% of his population ... and guess what? the vast majority of them are black. The only thing that will get rid of him, is when his own supporters either fear the long-term personal cost of supporting him, or see a shorter term benefit in getting rid of him. Supporting Zimbabwe's Movement for Democratic Change is about the most useful thing any of us can do
www.mdczimbabwe.com/
>> Edited by ATG on Sunday 12th January 21:33
www.mdczimbabwe.com/
>> Edited by ATG on Sunday 12th January 21:33
pies said: just finished watching the program.Program proves to me ALL politions are pathetic.They have no sence of morals,they only act for self preservation.
I believe it was the late, great Douglas Adams that said anyone that wanted to stand for political office should be immediately prevented from doing so.
Whilst the 'don't vote for them it only encourages them' feeling appeals, we just can't do that. If we did, we'd end up with a government elected by the minority that could be bothered, thats hugely unpopular and full of spin doctiors and sleeze, and with no effective form of opposition to at least make the buggers work for the payrise they awarded themselves when they were voted in.
Lucky that didn't happen then.
this from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2651687.stm
Sounds plausible to me. For what its worth, when I was out there about three years ago, the trouble on the farms was beginning to kick off in earnest. We were on an adjacent farm when Martin Olds was shot. The local branch of the commercial farmers union was getting tip-offs directly from members of Mugabe's cabinet. At the very least this showed that ZanuPF wasn't entirely behind Mugabe. Very senior members were prepared to try to play both sides of the fence until they could see which side was the likely winner. I can't believe the current chaos has made those people any more convinced that Mugabe is guaranteed to prevail. Lets hope the cracks keep widening.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2651687.stm
Sounds plausible to me. For what its worth, when I was out there about three years ago, the trouble on the farms was beginning to kick off in earnest. We were on an adjacent farm when Martin Olds was shot. The local branch of the commercial farmers union was getting tip-offs directly from members of Mugabe's cabinet. At the very least this showed that ZanuPF wasn't entirely behind Mugabe. Very senior members were prepared to try to play both sides of the fence until they could see which side was the likely winner. I can't believe the current chaos has made those people any more convinced that Mugabe is guaranteed to prevail. Lets hope the cracks keep widening.
Its completely vanished from most peoples recollection that Mugabe attained power in an election where the vast proportion of rural rhodesians (as it was then) were brutally intimidated.
That the british government gave several undertakings to the government of Rhodesia ahead of the "one person one vote" elections that Mugabe would not be allowed to win, instead a moderate candidate and interim prime minister was the favourite (a black bishop IIRC, his name eludes me.)
That he was the leader of a large terrorist organisation, armed and equipped by the russians (massive loans were given to pay for the hardware and "advisors", these were to be repaid when he attained power. We can assume that these are still bleeding the coffers of Zimbabwe.)
That he was responsible, directly and indirectly, for a series of atrocities, including the shooting down of two rhodesian airways passenger aircraft (in sperate incidents, using surface to air missiles) and the rounding up and subsequent shooting of most of the few survivors.
Mugabe's "War Veterans" are nothing of the sort, merely the semi-trained members of a terrorist organisation.
I could rant on about this topic for a while, its very simple. A country that rightfully should be rich and fertile has been reduced to poverty and food shortages by a dictator who should have been removed from power long ago.
Is Iraq more important than Zimbabwe? Yes IMHO. Simply because of the oil reserves.
Why? Because we need them. Western civilisation is built on the use of petrochemicals and the safe supply of those is a requirement for our way of life.
Should something be done in Zimbabwe? Yes I believe so, but what? I think its unlikely that we, as England, are able to do much.
The days are gone when Britannia ruled the waves and the sun never set on the British empire.
If the british army, stretched and under supported as it is, were to attempt to remove mugabe by force we would likely end up bogged down in a war that could not be won.
That the british government gave several undertakings to the government of Rhodesia ahead of the "one person one vote" elections that Mugabe would not be allowed to win, instead a moderate candidate and interim prime minister was the favourite (a black bishop IIRC, his name eludes me.)
That he was the leader of a large terrorist organisation, armed and equipped by the russians (massive loans were given to pay for the hardware and "advisors", these were to be repaid when he attained power. We can assume that these are still bleeding the coffers of Zimbabwe.)
That he was responsible, directly and indirectly, for a series of atrocities, including the shooting down of two rhodesian airways passenger aircraft (in sperate incidents, using surface to air missiles) and the rounding up and subsequent shooting of most of the few survivors.
Mugabe's "War Veterans" are nothing of the sort, merely the semi-trained members of a terrorist organisation.
I could rant on about this topic for a while, its very simple. A country that rightfully should be rich and fertile has been reduced to poverty and food shortages by a dictator who should have been removed from power long ago.
Is Iraq more important than Zimbabwe? Yes IMHO. Simply because of the oil reserves.
Why? Because we need them. Western civilisation is built on the use of petrochemicals and the safe supply of those is a requirement for our way of life.
Should something be done in Zimbabwe? Yes I believe so, but what? I think its unlikely that we, as England, are able to do much.
The days are gone when Britannia ruled the waves and the sun never set on the British empire.
If the british army, stretched and under supported as it is, were to attempt to remove mugabe by force we would likely end up bogged down in a war that could not be won.
Who's paying for that then James eh?
Seems highly likely following all the political shennanigans in Zim. that a deal will be cut between the major interested parties, probably giving Mugabe immunity and removing him from power. Mugabe is an old man and reputedly his health isn't so great so maybe he's just lining up an escape route?
Real question is who do they get next, how do they deal with the land issue, the war in the Congo and all the other attendant problems of being a small underdeveloped African country blighted by political strife and war? Lets hope they get someone decentm and that the UN, US and particularly the UK give Zim a chance to move forward.
Seems highly likely following all the political shennanigans in Zim. that a deal will be cut between the major interested parties, probably giving Mugabe immunity and removing him from power. Mugabe is an old man and reputedly his health isn't so great so maybe he's just lining up an escape route?
Real question is who do they get next, how do they deal with the land issue, the war in the Congo and all the other attendant problems of being a small underdeveloped African country blighted by political strife and war? Lets hope they get someone decentm and that the UN, US and particularly the UK give Zim a chance to move forward.
jamesc said: Please remember this country is Rhodesia! Lets send the troops in and kick the tin pot dictator out!
James
I simply dont believe that we could succeed in an invasion of Zimbabwe even if there were the polical and public will to do so.
The country used to be Rhodesia, it was Sir Charles Rhodes Land before that. Its now Zimbabwe, for better or for worse. After the UDI our ties and political claims to this land were severed.
Cecil Rhodes! I don't think he was ever knighted; however he took the whole country with only a couple hundred men on horseback.
How would we pay for this? Rhodesia is a country with great assets that are just badly managed. The farms could then be returned to those that know best. There is Gold, Oil, Silver and Diamonds.
James
How would we pay for this? Rhodesia is a country with great assets that are just badly managed. The farms could then be returned to those that know best. There is Gold, Oil, Silver and Diamonds.
James
No James, there isn't any oil. One of Zim's major strategic problems is that it doesn't have oil and it is landlocked so doesn't have any ports through which to import it.
There has been virtually no oil in the country for the last four years.
Zim has a reasonable chance of a recovery if total corruption can be held at bay. Until very recently the court system worked, and the police were fairly honest. A lot of the population are fairly well educated. That is the basis for being able to do business.
The Zimbabweans are perfectly capable of putting their own house in order so long as decent and astonishingly brave poeple like Morgan Changirai are allowed to be elected to office. At that point countries like the UK can and must help shore up Zimababwe with sensibly targetted aid.
There has been virtually no oil in the country for the last four years.
Zim has a reasonable chance of a recovery if total corruption can be held at bay. Until very recently the court system worked, and the police were fairly honest. A lot of the population are fairly well educated. That is the basis for being able to do business.
The Zimbabweans are perfectly capable of putting their own house in order so long as decent and astonishingly brave poeple like Morgan Changirai are allowed to be elected to office. At that point countries like the UK can and must help shore up Zimababwe with sensibly targetted aid.
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