Is this what occurs if you can't defend your home?
Discussion
www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/3091245
Quite stunning really....
Man tortured to death
Evening Standard
27 January 2003
Detectives hunting a gang of crack cocaine dealers suspected of taking over a man's house and torturing him to death are close to making arrests.
Police believe they have identified members of the gang who hijacked Keith Webb's home, forcing him to retreat to an attic.
The gang is believed to be one of dozens which have resorted to invading the homes of the elderly and mentally ill to turn them into crack dens.
Mr Webb, 57, who was single with no children, had managed to evict the drug dealers who had plagued him, with the help of his family and police, after a series of armed police raids on his Streatham home.
Yet neighbours said the dealers returned and Mr Webb, who worked for an engineering firm, was too frightened and intimidated to stop them turning his three- storey Victorian semi into a crack den. Eventually he shut himself off, going to work and returning to a single back bedroom, while young dealers controlled the rest of the property.
His body was found bound and gagged in the attic room last Wednesday. Police believe it may have been there for up to three weeks before being discovered by a relative.
A post mortem found he died a horrific death, sometime early in January, as a result of "maltreatment at the hands of a suspect or suspects". He had been kicked and punched repeatedly.
Detective Chief Inspector Brian Haynes, leading the murder hunt, said: "His family are distraught. This was a particularly brutal murder."
He described Mr Webb as a man of good character who had asked police for assistance in evicting people from his home in Ellison Road.
Scotland Yard said Mr Webb's family, with police from Lambeth, initiated eviction procedures against others in the house. The family applied to the County Court for an eviction order. On 4 October last year a drugs search warrant was executed with support from armed police and a number of people were evicted.
Neighbours described Mr Webb as a quiet, shy man, who was rarely seen except when leaving for work or returning home in the evening. One neighbour, an 81-year-old widow, who knew Mr Webb's family for more than 20 years, said: "He was always very nice and always used to say good morning ."
But local people noticed dramatic changes in the past year when the house was turned into a crack den. One resident recalled an incident in which a young man is believed to have shot himself in the foot while cleaning a gun inside the house. Another man covered in blood jumped over a fence into the next door neighbour's garden.
"There were armed police there time after time," said another neighbour. "They threw the dealers out and they just came back - sometimes as quickly as the next day. Mr Webb was probably terrified of them."
The murder has highlighted the problem of ruthless drug gangs invading the suburban homes of vulnerable people.
The owners are often too terrified to resist or in many cases raise the alarm. In one case a council tenant was forced to live in his cupboard while dealers took over the rest of his flat.
For once something in the news has actually managed to shock me...
The police raided the place "several times" yet the guys kept coming back?
Something is missing from the story here... Surely when armed police raid a crack dealer they actually arrest people?
(Or shoot them, but thats a best case scenario)
The police raided the place "several times" yet the guys kept coming back?
Something is missing from the story here... Surely when armed police raid a crack dealer they actually arrest people?
(Or shoot them, but thats a best case scenario)
for the state of this nation. That is one of those stories you need to read a couple of times before it sinks in.
"applied for eviction orders" How about a H&K machine pistol as an effective eviction tool.
And why where they evicting them and not going around to arrest them/blow the fckuckers away.
It really is surreal to realise that in this country strangers can enter your home, take it over, carry out illegal activities such as drug dealing, you then call the cops and they......EVICT them, the scum come back and the police EVICT them a number of times. So by now the cops know you have crack dealers holding you to ransom/hostage.....and still you end up being TORTURED to death.
Fcuk me this isn't Rawanda or Sierra Leone or the Congo is it.
"applied for eviction orders" How about a H&K machine pistol as an effective eviction tool.
And why where they evicting them and not going around to arrest them/blow the fckuckers away.
It really is surreal to realise that in this country strangers can enter your home, take it over, carry out illegal activities such as drug dealing, you then call the cops and they......EVICT them, the scum come back and the police EVICT them a number of times. So by now the cops know you have crack dealers holding you to ransom/hostage.....and still you end up being TORTURED to death.
Fcuk me this isn't Rawanda or Sierra Leone or the Congo is it.
I've got an Afghan cnut of a refugee motherf**ker in one of our flat's since over a year now. It's in central london so a bastard to get in front of a court, and even when we finally did he claimed he knew us and mentioned a couple of names (which in itself isn't remarkable as the names are on the eviction orders and affidavits duh!) an claimed he had been paying cash for the last year with no receipts. Even more remarkable is the fact that he claims to have always paid more up front than necessary, i.e. £3,000 in advance each month!!!!
And when we did manage to evict him ourselves (he was not the tenant, she moved out and he somehow got in there, probably via her), we were told that we could be facing criminal charges blah blah blah and must let him in asap or facing civil proceedings for damages, which could be as much as the value of the property! Showed the police around the flat and he had all this taliban shit lying around, blatantly a supporter.
So we ignored threats of criminal charges and had someone stay there whilst we found a new tenant, and he manages to come back with some guys and break in and kick the other guy out. We call police, show the guy staying there has been assaulted etc etc, they say there is nothing they can do as its on private property!! I said okay we are going up there to kick his ass and they threaten to arrest all 6 of us. They got handcuffs ready etc.
So we had to leave and he has been there since April, we us awaiting another court hearing this time in his name (after finally obtaining what we believe is a correct alias via the police, who claim they have seen his British passport!!!
To read this it makes me sick. Really does. Especially as last night a friend and I see a car at the lights with some guy banging on the window, we asked what he was doing (we thought he had a fight with his girl or something) and he replies that its his car and it's been stolen. The thief manages to get through a gap and after finally getting people out of our way we chase the car. Tried to follow it down some roads but not local to the area so the bastard disappears. Anyway, we're told by the police not to get too involved blah blah blah. Thing is he was on his own so we would have battered him, plus we were going to follow at a distance until he was somewhere safe enough for us to break his legs
. Bastard got away though. When my mate asked the Police if he would get into trouble if he managed to beat the crap out of the guy, or if he "accidentally" smashed the window and bits of glass got imbedded in his face, and they said "yes"!!! It's sickening. Anyway, the guy who the car belonged to was grateful at least.
I wonder why it's got so bad. I sometimes think the government want it like this. I just wonder why though. Could it be to help introduce the ID card/tagging as the magic resolution? All that seems to be happening is the law abiders get screwed. Could it be because the govt. want it to get sooo bad that the population will accept anything they offer to resolve the situation? It's a headf**k to think about, but you really have to question why it can get sooo bad.
And when we did manage to evict him ourselves (he was not the tenant, she moved out and he somehow got in there, probably via her), we were told that we could be facing criminal charges blah blah blah and must let him in asap or facing civil proceedings for damages, which could be as much as the value of the property! Showed the police around the flat and he had all this taliban shit lying around, blatantly a supporter.
So we ignored threats of criminal charges and had someone stay there whilst we found a new tenant, and he manages to come back with some guys and break in and kick the other guy out. We call police, show the guy staying there has been assaulted etc etc, they say there is nothing they can do as its on private property!! I said okay we are going up there to kick his ass and they threaten to arrest all 6 of us. They got handcuffs ready etc.
So we had to leave and he has been there since April, we us awaiting another court hearing this time in his name (after finally obtaining what we believe is a correct alias via the police, who claim they have seen his British passport!!!
To read this it makes me sick. Really does. Especially as last night a friend and I see a car at the lights with some guy banging on the window, we asked what he was doing (we thought he had a fight with his girl or something) and he replies that its his car and it's been stolen. The thief manages to get through a gap and after finally getting people out of our way we chase the car. Tried to follow it down some roads but not local to the area so the bastard disappears. Anyway, we're told by the police not to get too involved blah blah blah. Thing is he was on his own so we would have battered him, plus we were going to follow at a distance until he was somewhere safe enough for us to break his legs
. Bastard got away though. When my mate asked the Police if he would get into trouble if he managed to beat the crap out of the guy, or if he "accidentally" smashed the window and bits of glass got imbedded in his face, and they said "yes"!!! It's sickening. Anyway, the guy who the car belonged to was grateful at least. I wonder why it's got so bad. I sometimes think the government want it like this. I just wonder why though. Could it be to help introduce the ID card/tagging as the magic resolution? All that seems to be happening is the law abiders get screwed. Could it be because the govt. want it to get sooo bad that the population will accept anything they offer to resolve the situation? It's a headf**k to think about, but you really have to question why it can get sooo bad.
TheLemming said:
.....Something is missing from the story here... Surely when armed police raid a crack dealer they actually arrest people?
(Or shoot them, but thats a best case scenario)
Arresting someone is only effective for usually 24 hours. After that they have to be cahrged or released (normally sooner) unless extensions are applied for. This only usually happens after extremely serious offences such as the incident last summer when people were arrested for child abduction and suspicion of murder.
If dealers on a minor street level such as crack houses are arrested, then unless there are large amounts of substances recovered (and usually there are not large amounts discovered because they are not stupid enough to store it at such places), they will usually be bailed under Police bail to return at a later date when the substances have been analysed. That can take six weeks (and in most cases even longer).
No one can be charged with a Class 'A' drug (which crack is) without a chemical analysis and a statement from a forensic scientist saying it is a class 'A' substance.
So the situation is thus.
1)Armed Police arrive at 0530 in the morning and storm the place.
2) Everyone inside is arrested and searched (you would not believe where they keep some of this stuff then put in in their and someone elses mouths
) 3) Usually only personal amounts are found on suspects who are arrested.
4) A sweep by a trained drugs dog will follow but more often than not, the stash is nowhere near the crack house. (Crack is delivered in small quantities by runners)
5) Those that are in possession ( a minor offence these days and subject to such status by both Magistrates and Crown Courts) are arrested and interviewed about the possession. Even if they admit it is a class 'A' drug, Police still have to bail them and analyse it.
6) Those that are in possession of prohibited weapons (Firearms etc) will be charged and bailed to court. They will not be remanded by either Police (to court the next day) or Courts unless they happen to be an example of someone who is here illegally!
The courts then release them under court bail.
7) Unless intoxicated, Most prisoners are dealt with in or slightly after 6 hours in custody. P.A.C.E. 1984 is designed to see that this happens by intervention of review periods by an Inspector to make sure that the case is being investigated expeditiously.
8) Lawyers (and anyone who has a concern about the welfare of a prisoner) which are the right of every suspect to have access to and normally who will attend for interview, have the right to make representations about the continued custody of their client. They do so vehemently and as stated before, only i the most serious cases do the Police have the grounds for keeping suspects in Police cells until they can appear before a court.
9) Having been taken into custody, intimate searches of a persons body for drugs cannot be done unless the subject is suspected of a Serious arrestable offence Examples of these are Murder, Kidnapping, U.S.I. with a girl under 13, Rape, etc. Possession with intent to supply Class 'A' drugs is a Serious Arrestable Offence. Possession alone is not!
Even then they cannot be searched in such a way by the Police if the search is for drugs.
This cannot happen at a Police Station (has to be medical practice or hospital) and must be done by either a nurse or Doctor!
10) Most drug dealers and users know these procedures inside out because they have been through them many times.
They know that it is extremely difficult to get evidence to convict someone of 'Supplying' drugs (Possession with intent to supply usually according to CPS means having a large amount of the substance in his possession. From experience even 15 wraps of cocaine have not been classed as enough to show evidence of this offence, purely personal use
) and they take such actions so that they do not fall foul of the specific laws which will convict them of such an offence. 11) Having spent their 6 or 8 hours in a cell, had the Japs eye or whatever rummaged by the Police surgeon at the local surgery (if that applies at all and usually it does not because a Superintendent has to believe that they are in Possession to Supply class 'A' and then authorise the search. They do not!)
representation by the lawyer and they come out smiling from custody, free to do whatever they like again, minus of course the two rocks that they had down their shreddies but normally with the condom full up the jacksy still there!
So you can see why these people can just go straight back and terrorise victims such as the one in this article. Mainly because there is no deterrent and Police and court procedures are not adequate to stop them doing so. They know this too.
Madcop,
ninja_eli said: So we ignored threats of criminal charges and had someone stay there whilst we found a new tenant, and he manages to come back with some guys and break in and kick the other guy out. We call police, show the guy staying there has been assaulted etc etc, they say there is nothing they can do as its on private property!! I said okay we are going up there to kick his ass and they threaten to arrest all 6 of us. They got handcuffs ready etc.
How can it be OK for this bloke to attack Ninjas mate and it's not OK for ninja to get back at him. Surely it's either OK or it's not
I'm f
g confused Basically what you're saying is that if a bunch of crack dealers want to use my house. The best advice is to move out and hope they don't find it comfortable enough to stay for more than a couple of years
Edited to say: Obviously (I hope) not having a pop, just trying to get clarification on the limitations of the law
>> Edited by incorrigible on Monday 27th January 11:41
CarZee said: It all adds fuel to the fire of impending vigilante-ism..
Anarchy is just around the corner: Gentlemen... start your petrol bombs.
you're right tho. just point me in the right direction!
>> Edited by shadowninja on Monday 27th January 12:06
>> Edited by shadowninja on Monday 27th January 12:07
incorrigible said:
How can it be OK for this bloke to attack Ninjas mate and it's not OK for ninja to get back at him. Surely it's either OK or it's not
I'm f
Basically what you're saying is that if a bunch of crack dealers want to use my house. The best advice is to move out and hope they don't find it comfortable enough to stay for more than a couple of years
Edited to say: Obviously (I hope) not having a pop, just trying to get clarification on the limitations of the law
>> Edited by incorrigible on Monday 27th January 11:41
It basically goes down to the age old problem of squatters rights.
There is an offence under Section 6 Criminal Law Act 1977 of using violence to secure entry
This works in the way that if anyone uses or threatens violence to get into a property either for himself or another person, provided that there is someon in the premises who is opposed to that entry and the person using or threatening violence knows that they are in there and are refusung entry, They commit the offence per se.
The fact a person has a right or interest in the property will not constitute 'Lawful authority' to use violence to secure entry against who ever is in there who should not be there!
It has a power of arrest attached to it (Constable in Uniform) either in the act of doing so or whom he suspects to be guilty of doing so. So it is a past tense power of arrest as well, not just present tense.
THE DEFENCE TO SUCH CONDUCT
Section 6(1A) C.L.A. 1977
This caters for what are referred to DISPLACED OR PROTECTED RESIDENTIAL OCCUPIERS.
Dispaced Residential Occupier is
1) Someone who was occupying any premises as a resident immediately before being excluded by the squatter, so long as he continues to be excluded form residing there by the original squatter or another who takes his place.
If the original squatter immediately before being excluded by another squatter tries to gain status as a displaced residential occupier, it will not work under this Act.
2) Protected intending occupier is
Probably one of the longest definitions in criminal law history!
The gist of it is that it includes people with a freehold interest or a Leasehold interest in the property which has has at least 2 years to run,
AND
Where the person above needs the property for his/her own residence and is excluded by a squatter.
AND where they have documentation to prove such rights to the property.
The above act was made purely to cover the rights of squatters in premises but Violence to secure entry is not just available as a power to deal with landlord/ tennant disputes but anyone
even a domestic with your partner who happens to throw you out and lock all the doors. If you threaten or use violence against them or the property itself to gain entry, knowing you are not wanted in there by the person who is inside, you commit this offence!
So in Ninja Elis' case, he does not fit the category of either Displaced Residential Occupier
Because he didn't live/reside there prior to being excluded by the squatter.
OR
Protected Intending Occupier
because he is not going to live there because he has another premise available or is living in another premise. This is for someone who has nowhere else to go and the property belongs to them, on getting there finds it is occupied by a squatter.
The Act was designed to stop Landlords using violence to evict tenants from premises that they no longer wanted to reside there.
The only way to do it properly is to apply to the court for an eviction order!
The Offence covers squatters rights but if you fall into either category of residential/intending occupier, You have a defence to put forward to the court for your violent conduct to get back into the property.
It is complex but I hope that explains it!
>> Edited by madcop on Monday 27th January 12:25
Tips for Home Defence.
1) Have handy a large bottle of Propane gas, fitted with a length of rubber tubing of aprox 15 feet.
Insert into one end of the pipe a short, 6 inch length of copper tube with a partly flattened end.
attach other end to gas bottle.
Invert the gas bottle, and keep in a handy location, along with a cigarette lighter.
Upon being faced with the scenario reported by Carzee, turn on the bottle and light the liquid gas emanating from the end of the copper piping, and direct 20 foot flame onto attackers until movement is no longer visible.
Keep a large water fire extinguisher close by.
As far as calling for or relying upon the police to help, forget it.
Do it yourself, and the consequences.
Drug dealers? Invading peoples property? Bring it on, i relish the opportunity to destroy these skum.
If the police cant or wont be proactive in hunting down and removing these bastards from society, then its up to us, the people who are being attacked to force a change in the law to allow self defence using whatever means.
The judges, magistrates and anyone else involved in allowing this to happen to this guy should be charged with criminal negligence here and now.
Whats happening to this country?
Its going over the edge, and once it blows, thatll be it, no returns.
1) Have handy a large bottle of Propane gas, fitted with a length of rubber tubing of aprox 15 feet.
Insert into one end of the pipe a short, 6 inch length of copper tube with a partly flattened end.
attach other end to gas bottle.
Invert the gas bottle, and keep in a handy location, along with a cigarette lighter.
Upon being faced with the scenario reported by Carzee, turn on the bottle and light the liquid gas emanating from the end of the copper piping, and direct 20 foot flame onto attackers until movement is no longer visible.
Keep a large water fire extinguisher close by.
As far as calling for or relying upon the police to help, forget it.
Do it yourself, and
the consequences. Drug dealers? Invading peoples property? Bring it on, i relish the opportunity to destroy these skum.
If the police cant or wont be proactive in hunting down and removing these bastards from society, then its up to us, the people who are being attacked to force a change in the law to allow self defence using whatever means.
The judges, magistrates and anyone else involved in allowing this to happen to this guy should be charged with criminal negligence here and now.
Whats happening to this country?
Its going over the edge, and once it blows, thatll be it, no returns.
This is all very depressing - Why bother turning up for work madcop? It seems you (ie the police - not you personnally) are of little use to anyone except criminals who use you for protection from thier victims !
(Not a dig at you madcop - just at the system, it must be very disheartening for cops these days)
(Not a dig at you madcop - just at the system, it must be very disheartening for cops these days)
deltaf said: As far as calling for or relying upon the police to help, forget it.
Do it yourself, and
Drug dealers? Invading peoples property? Bring it on, i relish the opportunity to destroy these skum.
Adaption of the equipment you advise is to make yourself a prohibited weapon/firearm under Section 5 firearms act 1968. For someone of middle England to have such a device would be asking for a prolonged period of reflection in a small room with limited views
If the police cant or wont be proactive in hunting down and removing these bastards from society, then its up to us, the people who are being attacked to force a change in the law to allow self defence using whatever means.
But the police do hunt them down. We do arrest them time and again, the same people for the same ofences.
We would love to lock them up for ever and do unspeakable things to them but are not permitted to do
so because of the laws that govern detention and treatment whilst in detention and how long we can keep them for. Not just UK Law but that of ECHR.
The judges, magistrates and anyone else involved in allowing this to happen to this guy should be charged with criminal negligence here and now.
Whats happening to this country?
Its going over the edge, and once it blows, thatll be it, no returns.
But Judges and Magistrates are constricted by exactly the same procedures and restrictions on punishment that govern how the Police get them to stand before Magistrates and Judges.
That law has derived from politics over the years for the protection of everyones rights. Those that do not involve themselves in criminal acts are never going to derive the benefits of the wise decisions in the corridors of power
. Those that do infringe the laws, use these extreme Acts and procedures for every single possible benefit they can, so they are dealt with leniently as a result
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