Wednesday - jamie Bulger's 10yr anniversary
Discussion
Seems like only a few years ago, but on Wednesday it will be 10 years since the killing of Jamie Bulger by Robert Thompson and Jon Venables.
Apparently they've been sent abroad at taxpayers' expense (even though we already paid for them to have new identities etc) in an attempt to ensure they aren't caught up in any trouble with the anniversary being this week.
Hard to believe that our system cares that much about two individuals who led away a 2 year old, stripped him, sexually abused him, smashed his skull with bricks and an iron bar and then threw him on a railway line for a train to slice him in two.
There's no penalty too bad for those two
Apparently they've been sent abroad at taxpayers' expense (even though we already paid for them to have new identities etc) in an attempt to ensure they aren't caught up in any trouble with the anniversary being this week.
Hard to believe that our system cares that much about two individuals who led away a 2 year old, stripped him, sexually abused him, smashed his skull with bricks and an iron bar and then threw him on a railway line for a train to slice him in two.
There's no penalty too bad for those two
I'm sure some public spirited (if vengeful) soul will have placed that information on the internet by now anyway ..
Marcos maniac said:
I read the interview with Mrs Bulger in yesterdays paper, apparently she knows theie new identities and and addresses
Sadly, in the event of someone acting on it, Mrs Bulger would doubtless be the police's first port of call.
CarZee said:I'm sure some public spirited (if vengeful) soul will have placed that information on the internet by now anyway ..
Marcos maniac said:
I read the interview with Mrs Bulger in yesterdays paper, apparently she knows theie new identities and and addresses
Sadly, in the event of someone acting on it, Mrs Bulger would doubtless be the police's first port of call.
If I was Mr Bulger I would want to know.
Justice
All good things come to those who wait James Bulger's killing was undoubtedly a heinous crime, but what would the point be in having locked up the two children who killed him and thrown away the key ? It seems unlikely that Thompson and Venables had the intellectual and emotional capacity to realise that what they were doing was committing murder, we are talking about barely educated, abused 10 year old boys, bereft of any meaningful family life.
Although the papers at the time had 'fun' with the case suggesting that Bulger had been sexually assaulted and dowsed in paint in a manner mimicking a scene in 'Child's Play III' no evidence of sexual assault or desecration of the corpse was presented at trial. The children may have realised that they had done something wrong in taking Bulger to use as a plaything and, with their experiences as the victims of physical abuse and in the abscence of anywhere to turn, saw no way out but to silence their victim.
The UK system perceives 10 year old children as adults, the only concession at the trial of Venables and Thompson to their status as young children was to give them a step so they could see over the edge of the dock. In a case involving adults a plea of diminished responsibility could have been entered but there was no way of making Venables and Thompson understanding the nuances of this so all that was entered was a counter defence with Venables blaming Thompson and viceversa.
In most countries the killing of James Bulger would have been seen as an indictment of the social services his killers received, not as an example of irredeemable evil on their behalf.
Largely because of the media (tabloid and broadsheet) coverage of the case it is impossible to imagine that Venables and Thompson would be safe under their true identities. It is likely (as is usual practice for at risk individuals, including child abusers and IRA murderers) that they have been given new identities for their safety, but if they have been sent abroad this is not going to have been into a life of luxury, but rather into an uncertain future of constant hiding. It should be remembered that fellow child-killer Mary Bell did not manage to escape from media attention, even after 25 years in hiding.
Thompson and Venables were treated appallingly throughout their early lives and also, more importantly, by our 'justice' system which let them be demonised and tried in a totally inappropriate fashion. They were not comparable to Fred and Rose West or Myra Hyndley, adults targetting the vunerable for pleasure but, rather, children who created a situation they could not escape from.
Although the papers at the time had 'fun' with the case suggesting that Bulger had been sexually assaulted and dowsed in paint in a manner mimicking a scene in 'Child's Play III' no evidence of sexual assault or desecration of the corpse was presented at trial. The children may have realised that they had done something wrong in taking Bulger to use as a plaything and, with their experiences as the victims of physical abuse and in the abscence of anywhere to turn, saw no way out but to silence their victim.
The UK system perceives 10 year old children as adults, the only concession at the trial of Venables and Thompson to their status as young children was to give them a step so they could see over the edge of the dock. In a case involving adults a plea of diminished responsibility could have been entered but there was no way of making Venables and Thompson understanding the nuances of this so all that was entered was a counter defence with Venables blaming Thompson and viceversa.
In most countries the killing of James Bulger would have been seen as an indictment of the social services his killers received, not as an example of irredeemable evil on their behalf.
Largely because of the media (tabloid and broadsheet) coverage of the case it is impossible to imagine that Venables and Thompson would be safe under their true identities. It is likely (as is usual practice for at risk individuals, including child abusers and IRA murderers) that they have been given new identities for their safety, but if they have been sent abroad this is not going to have been into a life of luxury, but rather into an uncertain future of constant hiding. It should be remembered that fellow child-killer Mary Bell did not manage to escape from media attention, even after 25 years in hiding.
Thompson and Venables were treated appallingly throughout their early lives and also, more importantly, by our 'justice' system which let them be demonised and tried in a totally inappropriate fashion. They were not comparable to Fred and Rose West or Myra Hyndley, adults targetting the vunerable for pleasure but, rather, children who created a situation they could not escape from.
Jon
jondokic said: It seems unlikely that Thompson and Venables had the intellectual and emotional capacity to realise that what they were doing was committing murder, we are talking about barely educated, abused 10 year old boys, bereft of any meaningful family life.
Not so JonD. Here's what Venables' lawyer said about him in his recent interview for The Big Issue:
Lee’s first meeting with Venables, however, left him with an impression of a well mannered child. “When I first saw Jon I was convinced that I was wasting my time because he was a little boy – he looked more like eight than 10. He’s from a very respectable family too with a lovely mother and father – no police officer had ever been over their front doorstep.
Is this online anywhere ? The investigating officer has detailed the social services files on Venables and Thompson. Thompson was on the 'at risk' register, Venables's family had been investigated. Probably worth taking into account that Venables lawyer still needs to represent his actions in the best light.
edited to add (from www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,889609,00.html):
Vincent Moss, foreman of the jury
Moss, a book dealer, believes the trial should never have taken place. "They were children: not very intelligent, hardly educated - because they were persistent truants, and from a poor social background. For them, the trial was traumatic and largely incomprehensible. They knew that they had done something terribly wrong and were to be punished for it but could not understand why they were in court for day after day with adults who were using language and concepts which had no reality for them..."
"...The boys' home environment wasn't touched on either. The circumstances which might have given some context to their actions weren't brought out.
>> Edited by jondokic on Monday 10th February 15:29
edited to add (from www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,889609,00.html):
Vincent Moss, foreman of the jury
Moss, a book dealer, believes the trial should never have taken place. "They were children: not very intelligent, hardly educated - because they were persistent truants, and from a poor social background. For them, the trial was traumatic and largely incomprehensible. They knew that they had done something terribly wrong and were to be punished for it but could not understand why they were in court for day after day with adults who were using language and concepts which had no reality for them..."
"...The boys' home environment wasn't touched on either. The circumstances which might have given some context to their actions weren't brought out.
>> Edited by jondokic on Monday 10th February 15:29
Jon
Yes, I found it here when looking into the anniversary thing:
www.bigissueinthenorth.com/Magazine/bulger.html
The article makes interesting reading.
Yes, I found it here when looking into the anniversary thing:
www.bigissueinthenorth.com/Magazine/bulger.html
The article makes interesting reading.
It seems unlikely that Thompson and Venables had the intellectual and emotional capacity to realise that what they were doing was committing murder, we are talking about barely educated, abused 10 year old boys, bereft of any meaningful family life.
I'm sorry Jon but I have to beg to differ with you on this particular point. I thought your post was on the whole well thought out, but this point I feel isn't right at all.
Whatever upbringing these two children had they would have known the difference between right and wrong and without a doubt they would have known that they were cold bloodedly murdering James Bulger. One of them even saw fit to brag about it afterwards.
I know it's impossible to put ourselves in the shoes of Mrs Bulger, but she has every right to be livid at these two getting a free holiday on the anniversary of her son's death. If anyone gets a free holiday it should be her. Her suffering must go on every day while these two evil bastards have another chance to have a life. Jamie Bulger and his family didn't get a second chance, so why should these two?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I for one think they should have hanged for their crime. My Mother was bought up in a large poor family and didn't see her father until she was 6 years old because he was fighting a war. They struggled to survive and were often hiding in the air raid shelter while the houses in the streets surrounding them were bombed. She didn't go round murdering other children and then using her personal circumstances as an excuse.
IMO, we are far too soft on evil people like this. They don't deserve another chance and the day they took Jamie Bulger's life in cold blood for the sake of "fun" should have have been their last day of freedom. I'm not the only one who feels this way.
jondokic said: Very hard to reconcile Laurence Lee's perception with that of the other parties involved in the case. Perhaps it's time for a journalistic investigation into the whole affair-not by Martin "really Michael ?" Bashir though
Too true, Bashir comes across as the lowest form of journo sensationalists, I wouldn't believe anything the guy says
Fair enough Flasher.
I am not sure that I am happier with the thought that these children understood what they were doing or with the view (as taken by the psychologist who interviewed them before the trial)that they were unaware of their actions.
The allegation that Thompson bragged about the killing was refuted in court.
Further quote, from Dominic Lloyd, the only lawyer to have remained involved with the case from the start (same source as above) regarding Thompson:
"It's a real hope of mine that he can get on with doing what he wants to do, which is to live a useful and quiet life. A lot of rehabilitation work has been done with him and it would be a shame to see that go to waste."
We can feel desperately sorry for the Bulgers without demonising the perpetrators of what was a terrible crime. It is my personal belief that redemption and forgiveness are fundamentals in a succesful society and that, particularly in the case of crimes committed by children rehabilitation should have a greater role than retribution.
Edited to add: There are some cases where the majority of people (or at least a vocal minority) believe the perpetrators to be beyond redemption and I, for one, would certainly not hold that certain individuals should have been brought back into society (some of whom are now forging careers as raconteurs and celebrities based on a history of horrifying violence)however, it is my belief that children do not fall into the same category as adults particularly where crimes of violence are concerned as they do not always perceive the likely consequences of their actions.
>> Edited by jondokic on Monday 10th February 16:07
I am not sure that I am happier with the thought that these children understood what they were doing or with the view (as taken by the psychologist who interviewed them before the trial)that they were unaware of their actions.
The allegation that Thompson bragged about the killing was refuted in court.
Further quote, from Dominic Lloyd, the only lawyer to have remained involved with the case from the start (same source as above) regarding Thompson:
"It's a real hope of mine that he can get on with doing what he wants to do, which is to live a useful and quiet life. A lot of rehabilitation work has been done with him and it would be a shame to see that go to waste."
We can feel desperately sorry for the Bulgers without demonising the perpetrators of what was a terrible crime. It is my personal belief that redemption and forgiveness are fundamentals in a succesful society and that, particularly in the case of crimes committed by children rehabilitation should have a greater role than retribution.
Edited to add: There are some cases where the majority of people (or at least a vocal minority) believe the perpetrators to be beyond redemption and I, for one, would certainly not hold that certain individuals should have been brought back into society (some of whom are now forging careers as raconteurs and celebrities based on a history of horrifying violence)however, it is my belief that children do not fall into the same category as adults particularly where crimes of violence are concerned as they do not always perceive the likely consequences of their actions.
>> Edited by jondokic on Monday 10th February 16:07
Jon, I don't disagree with the view that to have society that works we need to have redemption and forgiveness. However, too often in this country we see the perpetrators of these heinious crimes getting better treatment than the victims and their families.
In any society justice has to prevail, and in the UK too often it doesn't happen. We also have to bear in mind how we would feel and what we would expect to happen if it was one of our children/brother/sister that was so brutally murdered. Too often we are quick to say " give them another chance" without considering what our reaction would be if we were in the victims families shoes...
Giving these two a free holiday is beyond belief when they know exactly how the public will react when they find out about it...
In any society justice has to prevail, and in the UK too often it doesn't happen. We also have to bear in mind how we would feel and what we would expect to happen if it was one of our children/brother/sister that was so brutally murdered. Too often we are quick to say " give them another chance" without considering what our reaction would be if we were in the victims families shoes...
Giving these two a free holiday is beyond belief when they know exactly how the public will react when they find out about it...
I'd like to point out that if James Bulger had been sexually assaulted and murdered by an adult, almost non of you would remember his name after 10 years.
I'm also sure that if that adult was released after 20 years it wouldn't be in the paper. Maybe you should question why you are harder on children who without a doubt have more problems distinguishing right from wrong than adults do.
Could it be that you have been affected by "The Sun" et al demonising these children?
They have been punished. Their lives will always be affected adversly by what they did. Let it go and focus on real evil, adults who do similar with malice of forethought.
I'm also sure that if that adult was released after 20 years it wouldn't be in the paper. Maybe you should question why you are harder on children who without a doubt have more problems distinguishing right from wrong than adults do.
Could it be that you have been affected by "The Sun" et al demonising these children?
They have been punished. Their lives will always be affected adversly by what they did. Let it go and focus on real evil, adults who do similar with malice of forethought.
angusfaldo said:
jondokic said: It seems unlikely that Thompson and Venables had the intellectual and emotional capacity to realise that what they were doing was committing murder,
not true. there was a pre-trial to distinguish if they knew right from wrong, and the majority of the case was centered around proving there ability to understand what they had done. If they HAD NOT realised, there term would have been phyciatric help and councilling would it not?
s2ooz said: not true. there was a pre-trial to distinguish if they knew right from wrong, and the majority of the case was centered around proving there ability to understand what they had done. If they HAD NOT realised, there term would have been phyciatric help and councilling would it not?
No chance. The mood of the country was so against them the trial only had one possible outcome. The boys were effectively not offered the opportunity to plead not guilty on the grounds of diminished responsibility.
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