petrol vs. LPG, discuss...
Discussion
Petrol prices are at an all time high here in Germany and it's peeing me off now. I'm sometimes forced to pay 1,20 Euros for one Liter of that precious stuff. In Belgium just across the border, 1 Liter of LPG (gas)just costs 37 Cents. So, I plan to switch over to be a gas blaster. I need a new car anyway and I'm seriously thinking about investing another 2500,- Euros into a gas tank and gas fueling system. Now my question: Does anyone have experience with autogas (LPG). What are you thinking ?
my father had no probs with a vauxhall vectra 2.0l 16v converted to LPG - cost £1,100 and was utterly reliable and returned 80-88% of petrol economy depending on how hard you cained it. I ran a 1.2 16v corsa on LPG but the kit was custom made at £1,600 though the same thing applied. All things considered it was WELL worth it as I recouped the cost in months and it didn't invalidate the warranties. Long distances or high mileages can be easily coped with - my father bought & converted the vectra specifically for this purpose and the corsa withstood 54,000 miles of high revs and country lane caining. try the british gov website powershift.
Many years ago I had a Fiesta with LPG conversion, it also ran on petrol, anyway on LPG a little bit of power is lost (and a 950 Fiesta ain't got much in the first place! 
) and economy was slightly down but neither by much and LPG was/is much cheaper, only downside was loss of bootspace - but the biggest advantage was the range from full tanks of almost double that of standard about 600 - 650 miles IIRC. Didn't affect reliability as that car went round the (hard-driven Kilometre) clock over 3 times - until I wrote it off 
) and economy was slightly down but neither by much and LPG was/is much cheaper, only downside was loss of bootspace - but the biggest advantage was the range from full tanks of almost double that of standard about 600 - 650 miles IIRC. Didn't affect reliability as that car went round the (hard-driven Kilometre) clock over 3 times - until I wrote it off Has anybody done the cost per mile calculation taking into account the the car's LPG consumption per mile and the cost of the conversion spread, say, over a couple of years?
Just hearing about the cost per litre of petrol versus LPG doesn't mean much really - it's the running cost that matters.
Would the running costs be less than a Golf TDI that does 50-55mpg on the motorway for example?
Just hearing about the cost per litre of petrol versus LPG doesn't mean much really - it's the running cost that matters.
Would the running costs be less than a Golf TDI that does 50-55mpg on the motorway for example?
weeeelllll my corsa did 40 MPG on petrol & approx 34 MPG on gas - rolling road certified that power at the crank was 72 BHP on petrol and 63 BHP on gas. It was reliable as mentioned before & yes I did lose bootspace due to the "doughnut" tank where the spare wheel goes (meaning spare rides in the boot). cost per litre was and still is 30.9p per litre at the gas shop or 36.9p at the local jet station meaning that it saved me a pile of cash.
OK until Greedy Gordon decides to up the tax. It WILL happen if it becomes popular.
Some conversions have been done in a dodgy manner..........pause for bang.
Some insurance cos require the conversion to be done by an approved installer.
Eurotunnel won't let you go down their tunnel.
Do European gas stations use the same nozzle as UK gas stations??
Kind on engines. Viewed a converted Range Rover. Oil wasn't new, but looked like new and exhaust pipe was spotless.
Some conversions have been done in a dodgy manner..........pause for bang.
Some insurance cos require the conversion to be done by an approved installer.
Eurotunnel won't let you go down their tunnel.
Do European gas stations use the same nozzle as UK gas stations??
Kind on engines. Viewed a converted Range Rover. Oil wasn't new, but looked like new and exhaust pipe was spotless.
mybrainhurts said: OK until Greedy Gordon decides to up the tax. It WILL happen if it becomes popular.
true....
Some conversions have been done in a dodgy manner..........pause for bang.
also true...
Some insurance cos require the conversion to be done by an approved installer.
I wouldn't go anywhere near an installer that wasn't approved - you have little comeback.
Eurotunnel won't let you go down their tunnel.
go by ferry?
Do European gas stations use the same nozzle as UK gas stations??
as far as I know (I'm told they do by the garage who converted my car)
Kind on engines. Viewed a converted Range Rover. Oil wasn't new, but looked like new and exhaust pipe was spotless.
apparently it's very kind on engines. dunno why specifically but I changed the oil in the corsa when I had the kit put on and never needed it changed while I put 50 odd k on it (even though it was serviced at the vauxhall main dealer) oil remained clean. It may be due to gas having a much higher octane rating - something like 130-140 meaning it burns cleaner which may put less strain on the components???? ok I'm just guessing! the reason it does less MPG is because it has a lower calorific value.
Tried getting the Landcruiser converted - Toyota told us that the warranty would be invalid if we did. Also, as others have mentioned, you either put the spare into the boot, or get a new split fuel tank that limits that petrol range.
Also phoned Esso, Shell etc to see how many more LPG garages they will be installing in our area - NO MORE ARE PLANNED ANYWHERE. If you haven't got a handy LPG garage near you, then forget it. Our nearest garage was 20 miles away on the M4 services at Reading... Not really viable to do a 40 miles round trip to fill up.
Also phoned Esso, Shell etc to see how many more LPG garages they will be installing in our area - NO MORE ARE PLANNED ANYWHERE. If you haven't got a handy LPG garage near you, then forget it. Our nearest garage was 20 miles away on the M4 services at Reading... Not really viable to do a 40 miles round trip to fill up.
I've recently had my V6 Cavalier converted to run on LPG. I worked out that the conversion would take 15,000 miles to pay for itself. This was based on it doing 20mpg on gas compared to 25mpg on petrol and a cost of conversion of £1100.
From my experiences and from talking to other LPGheads at the REAL gassing station
it would seem that there are very often setup problems with an LPG conversion.
In my case the problem was high LPG consumption (12mpg to start with!) I'm now getting 20 and a bit. But other people seem to have had problems with backfires. In the worst case these have resulted in the induction system getting blown to pieces and leaving the car stranded...repeatedly!
My advice would be to buy a new car with a factory conversion. Vauxhall seem to specialise in LPG dual fuel models. Otherwise get the conversion carried out by an LPGA approved installer. It may cost more, but you are likely to have fewer problems and an easier time getting insurance.
From my experiences and from talking to other LPGheads at the REAL gassing station
it would seem that there are very often setup problems with an LPG conversion. In my case the problem was high LPG consumption (12mpg to start with!) I'm now getting 20 and a bit. But other people seem to have had problems with backfires. In the worst case these have resulted in the induction system getting blown to pieces and leaving the car stranded...repeatedly!
My advice would be to buy a new car with a factory conversion. Vauxhall seem to specialise in LPG dual fuel models. Otherwise get the conversion carried out by an LPGA approved installer. It may cost more, but you are likely to have fewer problems and an easier time getting insurance.
Volvo also do dual fuel cars. I am thinking about a 7-series Beemer next year, and I will have it converted. I reckon it will take about 15-18 months to pay for itself, and the boot should be big enough to take an extra tank. I'm fortunate in that my local garage has a bulk LPG tank for car use.
cnh1990 said: Just out of curiosity do you people have E85 flex fuel that we use in place of gasoline that uses the same fuel tank as gasoline?
Calvin
nope! what is it? (don't say "fuel"!) do you still go as fast? can we get it here & how much does it cost? if it's widely available it must be because it's better? if so, why don't we know more?
sorry for all the questions.....
Cars equiped to burn E85 flex fuel started to show up a few years ago in the USA, partly in response to lowering our dependance on imported oil and it does burn a bit cleaner. E85 Flex fuel cars may use either gasoline or E85 at anytime and E85 is appearing at more stations all the time.
I think the blend is 85% Ethanol/15% unleaded gasoline with the octane of regular unleaded. It is alcohol made out of corn which we have a lot of. Currently it is about $1.40/gal, with straight gasoline priced at $1.60/gal. Last year the price was higher than gasoline or about the same depending on the station one went to. With the recent gas price hikes E85 has stayed the same and is now lower that gasoline.
I will check the exact blend ratio as it is listed on the pump. Unfortunately all 3 of my cars are not new enough so I did not really read all the info on the pump as the current temp this morning -2F.
It is used in place of gasoline and in cars I have been in that uses the E85, I can't tell a difference. Mind you it was a regular car and not one of our high performance fun cars.
Only cars marked with the E85 flex fuel designation may use the blend or engine damage will result.
Calvin
>> Edited by cnh1990 on Tuesday 25th February 15:08
I think the blend is 85% Ethanol/15% unleaded gasoline with the octane of regular unleaded. It is alcohol made out of corn which we have a lot of. Currently it is about $1.40/gal, with straight gasoline priced at $1.60/gal. Last year the price was higher than gasoline or about the same depending on the station one went to. With the recent gas price hikes E85 has stayed the same and is now lower that gasoline.
I will check the exact blend ratio as it is listed on the pump. Unfortunately all 3 of my cars are not new enough so I did not really read all the info on the pump as the current temp this morning -2F.
It is used in place of gasoline and in cars I have been in that uses the E85, I can't tell a difference. Mind you it was a regular car and not one of our high performance fun cars.
Only cars marked with the E85 flex fuel designation may use the blend or engine damage will result.
Calvin
>> Edited by cnh1990 on Tuesday 25th February 15:08
I run a Jeep Grand cherokee that's been converted to LPG. Luckily, the boots huge, so I could put a big 90 litre tank in (still occupies half the boot) as it uses it quite rapidly.
Anyway, done a few tests to check out the money side and was quite alarmed that the conversion will take between 14,000 and 21,000 miles to pay for itself.
Jeep Petrol
Miles 50.70
Miles/gallon 18.44
Litres used 12.50
Value £9.46
Price/litre £0.76
Jeep Gas
Miles 50.00
Miles/gallon 14.13
Litres used 16.09
Value £6.26
Price/litre £0.39
I drove exactly the same route, in exactly the same style so there was no difference for motorways/heavy footed driving.
If I averaged my driving milage for the year, I got 7800 miles which meant a running cost of £1459.62 for petrol or £976.41 for gas, presuming prices remain constant.
Obviously, prices will not remain the same, but as long as there is a greater than 23.5% difference between the price of petrol and gas, gas will be the cheaper option.
Please note that my maths is crap - it took me ages to figure that lot out and it still might be wrong.
Edit to add piccie
>> Edited by Byff on Tuesday 25th February 16:19
Anyway, done a few tests to check out the money side and was quite alarmed that the conversion will take between 14,000 and 21,000 miles to pay for itself.
Jeep Petrol
Miles 50.70
Miles/gallon 18.44
Litres used 12.50
Value £9.46
Price/litre £0.76
Jeep Gas
Miles 50.00
Miles/gallon 14.13
Litres used 16.09
Value £6.26
Price/litre £0.39
I drove exactly the same route, in exactly the same style so there was no difference for motorways/heavy footed driving.
If I averaged my driving milage for the year, I got 7800 miles which meant a running cost of £1459.62 for petrol or £976.41 for gas, presuming prices remain constant.
Obviously, prices will not remain the same, but as long as there is a greater than 23.5% difference between the price of petrol and gas, gas will be the cheaper option.
Please note that my maths is crap - it took me ages to figure that lot out and it still might be wrong.
Edit to add piccie
>> Edited by Byff on Tuesday 25th February 16:19
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