Politics politics politics and newsnight
Discussion
This is a blatantly political thread but I will try to give it a motoring slant.
Last night Iain Duncan Smith appeared on Newsnight in front of a small audience termed as "disillusioned Tories". This programme is currently available on RealVideo at http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/03/ids5mar.ram.
Many Gassing threads mention politics - be it policies affecting motorists or other areas such as asylum, dealing with Saddam Hussein and tax. One frequent comment is a decrying the lack of opposition, namely the Tories. Well watching Newsnight left me in no doubt where the problem lies:
1. The Conservatives HAVE got decent policies but moreover are NOT making rash promises to be broken later - the Press seem to ignore policy announcements and demand promises not policies.
2. The Press pounce on every little sign of a "Party Split" - but if you took a close look at all political parties there are differences of opinion everywhere
3. Disillusioned Tories complain of not seeign the policies or people - mainly cos the press won't put them forward - but cannot be bothered to look for them on the Party website or contact their local party for material.
4. The interviewer (Kirsty somethign or other - not worth remembering her surname) did NOT allow IDS to actually answer some of the questions properly - she interrupted him and changed the emphasis of the questions - this highlights the problem with the media.
5. No one pleases everyone all of the time but the Tories managed to some good from 1979-97 - trouble is they irked so many journalists that now the latter have taken on the role of dictating what the public gets to hear about speed cameras, asylum, car tax, council tax.
So ok this rant is a bit of a whinge about the press - but I ask all you who have made the comment "Where's the opposition?" to perhaps ask "Am i being fed all the facts?".
Rant over - had to get it off my chest somewhere! Anyone else want to shoot me down in flames?
Last night Iain Duncan Smith appeared on Newsnight in front of a small audience termed as "disillusioned Tories". This programme is currently available on RealVideo at http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/03/ids5mar.ram.
Many Gassing threads mention politics - be it policies affecting motorists or other areas such as asylum, dealing with Saddam Hussein and tax. One frequent comment is a decrying the lack of opposition, namely the Tories. Well watching Newsnight left me in no doubt where the problem lies:
1. The Conservatives HAVE got decent policies but moreover are NOT making rash promises to be broken later - the Press seem to ignore policy announcements and demand promises not policies.
2. The Press pounce on every little sign of a "Party Split" - but if you took a close look at all political parties there are differences of opinion everywhere
3. Disillusioned Tories complain of not seeign the policies or people - mainly cos the press won't put them forward - but cannot be bothered to look for them on the Party website or contact their local party for material.
4. The interviewer (Kirsty somethign or other - not worth remembering her surname) did NOT allow IDS to actually answer some of the questions properly - she interrupted him and changed the emphasis of the questions - this highlights the problem with the media.
5. No one pleases everyone all of the time but the Tories managed to some good from 1979-97 - trouble is they irked so many journalists that now the latter have taken on the role of dictating what the public gets to hear about speed cameras, asylum, car tax, council tax.
So ok this rant is a bit of a whinge about the press - but I ask all you who have made the comment "Where's the opposition?" to perhaps ask "Am i being fed all the facts?".
Rant over - had to get it off my chest somewhere! Anyone else want to shoot me down in flames?
With all due respect (and I hate this government more than I am capable of articulating) I think that you are p*ssing in the wind.
IDS has failed completely
A) To make any impression on the British public (I'm afraid the general populous are not going to contact the party or check out the website)
B) To unite his party.
C) To land any meaningful blows on BLiar.
You cannot blame Kirsty Wark (who is very competent and whom I have seen give Labour ministers a very hard time) for doing her job. If you had heard IDS on the Today programme cackling like a demented witch you would realise how totally unsuitable he is to lead the party.
I speak as a former Tory party member who voted for IDS in the leadership campaign because I thought he would put some "clear blue water" between the Tory's and Labour. Instead he's tried to please the "modernisers" and has ended up pleasing no-one. The self flagellation (all that nasty party bollox) at last years conference was sickening to see. That was the moment when I knew I would not be renewing my membership.
For the sake of democracy we need a strong opposition with a strong leader. IDS is not it and Clarke would be a disaster. Unless somebody else with conviction and the personality to get the message across can step up to the plate we are condemned to ten more years of Billy Liar and his mates and that is just unacceptable.
:imofftoliedownnow:
IDS has failed completely
A) To make any impression on the British public (I'm afraid the general populous are not going to contact the party or check out the website)
B) To unite his party.
C) To land any meaningful blows on BLiar.
You cannot blame Kirsty Wark (who is very competent and whom I have seen give Labour ministers a very hard time) for doing her job. If you had heard IDS on the Today programme cackling like a demented witch you would realise how totally unsuitable he is to lead the party.
I speak as a former Tory party member who voted for IDS in the leadership campaign because I thought he would put some "clear blue water" between the Tory's and Labour. Instead he's tried to please the "modernisers" and has ended up pleasing no-one. The self flagellation (all that nasty party bollox) at last years conference was sickening to see. That was the moment when I knew I would not be renewing my membership.
For the sake of democracy we need a strong opposition with a strong leader. IDS is not it and Clarke would be a disaster. Unless somebody else with conviction and the personality to get the message across can step up to the plate we are condemned to ten more years of Billy Liar and his mates and that is just unacceptable.
:imofftoliedownnow:
paul-b said: With all due respect (and I hate this government more than I am capable of articulating) I think that you are p*ssing in the wind.
IDS has failed completely
A) To make any impression on the British public (I'm afraid the general populous are not going to contact the party or check out the website)
Ok - he did have that damned cough for ages - but when he speaks he talks sense - he does put forward policies BUT EVERY TIME he talks to a journalist the journalist wants to talk about dissent in the party
B) To unite his party.
Depends what you mean by the Party - if its peopel such as Portaloo, Heseltine and Clarke then you're forgetting the rank and file - they voted fo rhim and surely want to give him a chance to fight elections
C) To land any meaningful blows on BLiar.
Again he does in Parliament but not in the humorous way that Hague did - but do people see it on the BBC - rartely
You cannot blame Kirsty Wark (who is very competent and whom I have seen give Labour ministers a very hard time) for doing her job. If you had heard IDS on the Today programme cackling like a demented witch you would realise how totally unsuitable he is to lead the party. Didn't but Kirsty Wark did NOT let him answer the quesitons put forward by the audience
I speak as a former Tory party member who voted for IDS in the leadership campaign because I thought he would put some "clear blue water" between the Tory's and Labour. Instead he's tried to please the "modernisers" Dpeneds what you mean by modernisers - i defintiely think the local parties need a good kick and an injeciton of young blood - some are getting decrepit OAP clubs and has ended up pleasing no-one. The self flagellation (all that nasty party bollox) at last years conference was sickening to see.
Agree entirely
That was the moment when I knew I would not be renewing my membership. A great shame - don't take this quesiton the wrong way but upon what do you base your impression of IDS? If it's his portrayal and treatment by the BBC then you are illustrating my point entirely. But also surely we must all tolerate some things we don't like in order to unite against this sham of government we hav enow (Words fail me also to accurately describe the new Labour liars)
For the sake of democracy we need a strong opposition with a strong leader. IDS is not it and Clarke would be a disaster. Unless somebody else with conviction and the personality to get the message across can step up to the plate we are condemned to ten more years of Billy Liar and his mates and that is just unacceptable. If it's unacceptable then renew your membership, back IDS and see what happens -surely this has a chance of being better than Bliar and co?
:imofftoliedownnow:
Me too
Certainly not.. we need a right winger. Not a bleeding heart eurocrat in waiting..
apache said: paul-b it would seem that your dissolution with the Tories is not an isolated case, where do we go from here, who do you think would be a suitable replacement for IDS? not Portillo I hope
I can't understand why the 1922 committee hasn't taken Portillo outside & shot him.
The media would retort by saying it's precisely their job to give all politicos a hard time.
IDS certainly got a battering from Queen B1tch Wark last night; then again, Billy Liar got his fair share of grief at the hands of Torquemada Paxman in Geordie Land recently.
Having said that, Useless Kennedy DOES seem to get relatively delicate treatment compared to the other two groups - perhaps an indication of some Freudian political predisposition by the journos?
Maybe. Then again, you have to also admire the professionalism of some of these fellows as inquisitors par excellence (and Lord knows, I'm no friend of these wine tasting hypocrites, usually) - witness Dimbleby's recent mauling of Rumsfeld - I really don't think poor Donald knew what'd hit him!
You have to give substantial leeway to the (admittedly) liberalist bleatings of the pro-journo lobby because even moderates comme moi (
) can see the value in a somewhat wolverine political media pack.
Trouble is, it has to be genuinely unbiased.
But you're right insofar as party policy info dissemination is concerned: last night's IDS-bashing was a shocking example of sensationalist, scurrilous media frenzy in stark contrast to a more considered, intelligent approach.
Then again, over the years, the number of times I've seen a Tory grandee make compelling but complex points which get ignored by the massed ranks of muesli-mucnhing morons in the allegedly randomnly selected audience (randomnly selected, that is, by a time travelling research assisstant who recruits from the common room of the Students' Union Bar at the LSE from 1972), only for the said bunch of proles to applaud distastefully to the orc-like, pea brained monosyllabic grunting of some third rate Bets-y-Coed separatist - makes me puke!!!
Commie peasants.
IDS certainly got a battering from Queen B1tch Wark last night; then again, Billy Liar got his fair share of grief at the hands of Torquemada Paxman in Geordie Land recently.
Having said that, Useless Kennedy DOES seem to get relatively delicate treatment compared to the other two groups - perhaps an indication of some Freudian political predisposition by the journos?
Maybe. Then again, you have to also admire the professionalism of some of these fellows as inquisitors par excellence (and Lord knows, I'm no friend of these wine tasting hypocrites, usually) - witness Dimbleby's recent mauling of Rumsfeld - I really don't think poor Donald knew what'd hit him!
You have to give substantial leeway to the (admittedly) liberalist bleatings of the pro-journo lobby because even moderates comme moi (
) can see the value in a somewhat wolverine political media pack. Trouble is, it has to be genuinely unbiased.
But you're right insofar as party policy info dissemination is concerned: last night's IDS-bashing was a shocking example of sensationalist, scurrilous media frenzy in stark contrast to a more considered, intelligent approach.
Then again, over the years, the number of times I've seen a Tory grandee make compelling but complex points which get ignored by the massed ranks of muesli-mucnhing morons in the allegedly randomnly selected audience (randomnly selected, that is, by a time travelling research assisstant who recruits from the common room of the Students' Union Bar at the LSE from 1972
), only for the said bunch of proles to applaud distastefully to the orc-like, pea brained monosyllabic grunting of some third rate Bets-y-Coed separatist - makes me puke!!! Commie peasants.
Sado
It sounds as if you are a right leaning guy just like me. I agree abour Portillo etc.. but that's not the point. The fact is that IDS has been presented with open goals by BLiar and has failed to put the ball in the net.
His first front bench, the birth of the new forward thinking tory party, included Michael Howard (Dracula had a more voter friendly persona) and the Earl of Ancram. If he'd persuaded Anne Widdecombe to take a job we would have had the full set.
The tory party's communications under IDS are crap. As a member the only time I ever got contacted was when they wanted money.
I agree with you that the party needs to get away from the blue rinse image. However I do not believe that the way to do that is to ape the Labour party and go all touchy feely - and that is what IDS and Teresa May have tried to do. What they need to do is position the party to the right of centre to offer a true alternative to the government.
The problem is that IDS seems to have dumped his own ideology and tried to adopt a middle ground approach to please as many people as possible. As a result he pleases hardly anyone.
The sad fact is that to succeed in modern politics your leader has to have charisma and personality. The fact is that IDS has neither and is a LOSER. It's time to dump the chump.
It sounds as if you are a right leaning guy just like me. I agree abour Portillo etc.. but that's not the point. The fact is that IDS has been presented with open goals by BLiar and has failed to put the ball in the net.
His first front bench, the birth of the new forward thinking tory party, included Michael Howard (Dracula had a more voter friendly persona) and the Earl of Ancram. If he'd persuaded Anne Widdecombe to take a job we would have had the full set.
The tory party's communications under IDS are crap. As a member the only time I ever got contacted was when they wanted money.
I agree with you that the party needs to get away from the blue rinse image. However I do not believe that the way to do that is to ape the Labour party and go all touchy feely - and that is what IDS and Teresa May have tried to do. What they need to do is position the party to the right of centre to offer a true alternative to the government.
The problem is that IDS seems to have dumped his own ideology and tried to adopt a middle ground approach to please as many people as possible. As a result he pleases hardly anyone.
The sad fact is that to succeed in modern politics your leader has to have charisma and personality. The fact is that IDS has neither and is a LOSER. It's time to dump the chump.
CarZee said:Certainly not.. we need a right winger. Not a bleeding heart eurocrat in waiting..
apache said: paul-b it would seem that your dissolution with the Tories is not an isolated case, where do we go from here, who do you think would be a suitable replacement for IDS? not Portillo I hope
I can't understand why the 1922 committee hasn't taken Portillo outside & shot him.
Stop being such a pinko Carzee and say what you mean. Shootings too good for El Portaloo and you know it. String him up by his testicles and put him on display at the Tower.
apache said: paul-b it would seem that your dissolution with the Tories is not an isolated case, where do we go from here, who do you think would be a suitable replacement for IDS? not Portillo I hope
>> Edited by apache on Thursday 6th March 10:24
We need a revolution apache mate.
Carzee. Are you ready to rumble?
Agree with kevinday ... problem is Tories have run out of heavyweights to field. Clarke and Portillo are the genuine article ... problem is they are both egomaniacs and have reputations for being repectively a complete hot-headed bastard and a bully. With so much personal animosity kicking around, it would take an enormous amount of self-discipline for the party to ureunite behind one of them, and self discipline is precisely what the Tories ran out of in the early 90s and show absolutely no sign of regaining.
Portillo > couldn't lie straight in bed, changes policies more often than most people change underwear, would split the party down the middle
Clarke > Thatcher's chancellor, and it's not the eighties anymore
Howard > Dear god no
Redwood > See Howard
IDS > So anonymous he can't score points from the current bunch in power
Heseltine > Doesn't like me much, but probably the best PM we've never had (Apart from Wedgie Benn-well you've got to admit it would have been different
), too decrepit to be in the running
So who on earth is going to lead the conservatives with any chance of success ? Anne Widdecombe ?
It will have to be another 'risen without trace' story, but this tends to give us little grey men...
Clarke > Thatcher's chancellor, and it's not the eighties anymore
Howard > Dear god no
Redwood > See Howard
IDS > So anonymous he can't score points from the current bunch in power
Heseltine > Doesn't like me much, but probably the best PM we've never had (Apart from Wedgie Benn-well you've got to admit it would have been different
), too decrepit to be in the running So who on earth is going to lead the conservatives with any chance of success ? Anne Widdecombe ?
It will have to be another 'risen without trace' story, but this tends to give us little grey men...The problem with Portillo, regardless of the rights or wrongs of his views, is that he has made himself out to be the backstabber of politics, the snide man criticising from the back benches.
I have seen many interviews he has done, when asked will he make a leadership bid and he has always spouted the same "I fully back blah blah", then goes and starts stirring. Just seems untrustworthy to me even when compared to the average slime ball politician.
I saw newsnight last night and Kirsty Wark did what the media always do. She is more intent on making HER programme contentious and on the cutting edge and ultimately getting a reputation as opposed to actually finding out what IDS had to say. In the end IDS was interupting her and butting in. First time for everything eh.
Even the audience were trying to ask questions based on finding out about policy and the tories plans and Kirsty was continually moving the topic to Portillo and party splits.
I have long beleived the media no longer present the news or report news, but only present opinion and their slant on a story in order to attract the ratings/sales.
I don't feel the media/press are a reliable source of information anymore. They are way to politically biased and orientated towards their own commercial/political agenda's.
I want the basic facts to be presented to me so i can make my own decisons. I don't need jumped up trendies doing it for me.
IDS actually opened my eyes a bit. He seems to lack all the false, grandee, stage-managed PR controlled bollocks that has completely swamped Blair.
And I must add it was very refreshing to see a politician without the fixed-in-stone, smug, condescending, patronising smile "I know it all and I know BETTER than you" type look, think Patricia Hewitt.
IDS needs to become more vocal and attacking which he claimed he was about to start. He also needs to eject Portillo from the party.
IDS has resuscitated my interest in tory politics. There's a long way to go though.
I have seen many interviews he has done, when asked will he make a leadership bid and he has always spouted the same "I fully back blah blah", then goes and starts stirring. Just seems untrustworthy to me even when compared to the average slime ball politician.
I saw newsnight last night and Kirsty Wark did what the media always do. She is more intent on making HER programme contentious and on the cutting edge and ultimately getting a reputation as opposed to actually finding out what IDS had to say. In the end IDS was interupting her and butting in. First time for everything eh.
Even the audience were trying to ask questions based on finding out about policy and the tories plans and Kirsty was continually moving the topic to Portillo and party splits.
I have long beleived the media no longer present the news or report news, but only present opinion and their slant on a story in order to attract the ratings/sales.
I don't feel the media/press are a reliable source of information anymore. They are way to politically biased and orientated towards their own commercial/political agenda's.
I want the basic facts to be presented to me so i can make my own decisons. I don't need jumped up trendies doing it for me.
IDS actually opened my eyes a bit. He seems to lack all the false, grandee, stage-managed PR controlled bollocks that has completely swamped Blair.
And I must add it was very refreshing to see a politician without the fixed-in-stone, smug, condescending, patronising smile "I know it all and I know BETTER than you" type look, think Patricia Hewitt.
IDS needs to become more vocal and attacking which he claimed he was about to start. He also needs to eject Portillo from the party.
IDS has resuscitated my interest in tory politics. There's a long way to go though.
Agree with pretty much all you said Swilly. British media have lost the plot or been steered away from it by the spin machine. Ratings are everything and the program anchormen/women have developed into mini-celebs who need to be seen to be provocative and sensationalistic without accountability for anything.
In another time I think Portillo would have been an interesting Party Leader, perhaps PM. I empathise with much of what he advocates as reasonable and appropriate policy positions. I don't think he is right for the party now.
I do think that IDS has potential to be a substantial leader given the opportunity to get beyond the incessant in-Party disorder (and no, I don't think that it's a weakness of IDS that this is continuing - there's far too many opportunities for members of the Party to gain media time to keep their own agendas active).
I very much hope IDS sticks with it and he gets more air time to discuss his ongoing strategy to get the Tories back to the top of the pile. I do want to hear his views on policy and not the intensely irritating and self-serving noise from one dumb interviewer after another. Why did IDS end up on that program? It was always going to be a mess. He looks / sounds pretty good with Frost and Dimbleby.
Hutch
>> Edited by hut49 on Thursday 6th March 11:24
In another time I think Portillo would have been an interesting Party Leader, perhaps PM. I empathise with much of what he advocates as reasonable and appropriate policy positions. I don't think he is right for the party now.
I do think that IDS has potential to be a substantial leader given the opportunity to get beyond the incessant in-Party disorder (and no, I don't think that it's a weakness of IDS that this is continuing - there's far too many opportunities for members of the Party to gain media time to keep their own agendas active).
I very much hope IDS sticks with it and he gets more air time to discuss his ongoing strategy to get the Tories back to the top of the pile. I do want to hear his views on policy and not the intensely irritating and self-serving noise from one dumb interviewer after another. Why did IDS end up on that program? It was always going to be a mess. He looks / sounds pretty good with Frost and Dimbleby.
Hutch
>> Edited by hut49 on Thursday 6th March 11:24
(Clarke was John Major's chancellor ... he handed over the reins to Gordo)
Kirsty Wank is not that impressive IMHO ... unlike Humpty, Doodlebug or Pacman she can't keep up with her interviewees and follow up answers with further detailed questioning. She seems to go in with a list of prepared agressive questions, and pretty much sticks to it. Hence she gives the impression that she isn't listening to the answers that get given, whereas the other interviewers are much more nimble.
Kirsty Wank is not that impressive IMHO ... unlike Humpty, Doodlebug or Pacman she can't keep up with her interviewees and follow up answers with further detailed questioning. She seems to go in with a list of prepared agressive questions, and pretty much sticks to it. Hence she gives the impression that she isn't listening to the answers that get given, whereas the other interviewers are much more nimble.
JohnL said:
OK Jon, what have you done to upset Heseltine?
We had a slight disagreement as to whether consultancy fees charged by a company he is involved with were justified or not. Civilised in public, but my wife overheard him making an exceedingly uncomplementary comment with regards to me (mentioned on another thread-but I'm not risking litigation by flagging it up.)
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