Achtung ...Auf Wiedersehen Comerade...???
Discussion
Hi,
Considering the current US budget deficits as well as slowed economy, coupled with the general lack of support from our Deutsche brothers, perhaps we should consider a realignment of our defenses in their beloved Fatherland.
The US maintains 18 Army bases and Air Force stations in Germany, manned by 48,000 troops and their dependents. This costs the US about $3.8bn USD annually to maintain these bases and personnel. Our presence in Germany accounts for (directly and indirectly) 180,000 German jobs.
The genesis of these bases was to initially excert control over a defeated Germany and to provide protection to Western Europe from Soviet forces. These were concentrated in near proximity to the Fulda Gap, where Soviet Armoured Forces would need to invade in order to acess the plains of Western Europe.
Well, any such threat is long gone, and since Germany has recently shown their true colors as an ally, I believe we should simply leave them to their own resources. German military spending will need to increase to gain the same security we currently provide for free and their economy can learn to deal with nearly 200,000 displaced workers. They seem to forget that friendship swings both ways.
Should it be determined that we need a US military presence on the continent, let's establish bases in Poland. They are very good allies, they love the US, their economy could use the boost and as the cost of living is considerably less, the US would save hundreds of millions of dollars. Besides, Polish food is much better than that Kraut swill anyway.
Jim'85TE
Considering the current US budget deficits as well as slowed economy, coupled with the general lack of support from our Deutsche brothers, perhaps we should consider a realignment of our defenses in their beloved Fatherland.
The US maintains 18 Army bases and Air Force stations in Germany, manned by 48,000 troops and their dependents. This costs the US about $3.8bn USD annually to maintain these bases and personnel. Our presence in Germany accounts for (directly and indirectly) 180,000 German jobs.
The genesis of these bases was to initially excert control over a defeated Germany and to provide protection to Western Europe from Soviet forces. These were concentrated in near proximity to the Fulda Gap, where Soviet Armoured Forces would need to invade in order to acess the plains of Western Europe.
Well, any such threat is long gone, and since Germany has recently shown their true colors as an ally, I believe we should simply leave them to their own resources. German military spending will need to increase to gain the same security we currently provide for free and their economy can learn to deal with nearly 200,000 displaced workers. They seem to forget that friendship swings both ways.
Should it be determined that we need a US military presence on the continent, let's establish bases in Poland. They are very good allies, they love the US, their economy could use the boost and as the cost of living is considerably less, the US would save hundreds of millions of dollars. Besides, Polish food is much better than that Kraut swill anyway.
Jim'85TEWho's interests do you honestly think those troops are defending, Germany's or America's?
I'm may not be excellent a geography, but I'm pretty sure Germany is slap bang in the middle of Europe, so to be honest I think the chances of it being invaded are slim to none.
Although I have heard that Luxembourg is massing its troops on the boarder
I'm may not be excellent a geography, but I'm pretty sure Germany is slap bang in the middle of Europe, so to be honest I think the chances of it being invaded are slim to none.
Although I have heard that Luxembourg is massing its troops on the boarder
Hey Jim,
Do the Germans still owe us money or are they all paid up. If they are paid up we should do an exit from there and go else where. The former Warsaw pact countries that need a boost would be fine with many. Poland and somewhere east like in the Balkans seem fine if the goverments are willing.
Calvin
Do the Germans still owe us money or are they all paid up. If they are paid up we should do an exit from there and go else where. The former Warsaw pact countries that need a boost would be fine with many. Poland and somewhere east like in the Balkans seem fine if the goverments are willing.
Calvin
tuffer said: I think you will find that Germany's price for staying out of the last Gulf war was that they had to foot the bill for it ( they payed the largest contribution). That is probably why they are trying to veto this one.....they cant afford it!!
T,
Uh... Assistance promised to amounts to about £1.4 billion. This includes in cash £660 million from Kuwait, about £230 million from Germany, about £280 million from the United Arab Emirates, about £15 million from Hong Kong and about £8 million from Denmark. Within this total the assistance received to date is worth about £350 million. This includes only half the German cash contribution, £25 million cash contribution towards transport costs from Japan and assistance in kind, such as the provision of food, fuel, water and accommodation by Saudi Arabia under the agreement for host nation support. Assistance in kind has also been received from Bahrain, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Kuwait, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Singapore, Spain, Sweden and UAE.
So they may have had the biggest contribution of any european, but then they only actually paid half so they hardly can claim the honor of paying the most for the last Iraqi conflict.
Jim'85TE
Supercharged said: Who's interests do you honestly think those troops are defending, Germany's or America's?
I'm may not be excellent a geography, but I'm pretty sure Germany is slap bang in the middle of Europe, so to be honest I think the chances of it being invaded are slim to none.
Although I have heard that Luxembourg is massing its troops on the boarder
Uh,
I don't know how old you are... or the strength of your memory (although your grasp of geography seems a little wanting)...But, once upon a time there was this Big, Bad Giant called the Warsaw Pact, and they scared the p*ss out of all the good peoples of Europa, who turned to the Protectors called Yanks and cried "You must save us from that big bad giant"...
Jim'85TE LG. There is an argument that the US presence in most of Europe should be withdrawn. Whilst its true that having personnel close to any trouble allows the US to participate in any necessary UN action more swiftly I think its been demonstrated that the US can get troops anywhere it wants anytime it likes anyway...
The fact that US personnel are present in Europe is viewed by many Europeans as unnecessary and largely to the benefit of the US rather than anyone else today.
And I know that historically that was not true. Mind you Europe paid heavily for US involvement in WW2. And I mean *paid*. Its no coincidence that once British war debts to the US were paid off that a number of US bases were in the UK were closed.
The fact that US personnel are present in Europe is viewed by many Europeans as unnecessary and largely to the benefit of the US rather than anyone else today.
And I know that historically that was not true. Mind you Europe paid heavily for US involvement in WW2. And I mean *paid*. Its no coincidence that once British war debts to the US were paid off that a number of US bases were in the UK were closed.
Just to fill you guys in with the actual happenings here in germany, the US has already announced that they're closing over 30 bases, due to germany's "support" during the run up to the present pending conflict. They'll only be keeping 2 large bases and have generally poked a swift 2 fingers up in the air to the germans for their socialistic "support".
All arguments aside, the german law forbids an attacking war to be started from german soil, they still have their binding obligations to NATO, but hell, scumbag socialist Schroeder and his greenslime Fischer wanted to win an election so they LIED to the public!!!!
Serves them damn well right!!!!! And todays figure for unemployment are the highest in Europe 4.71 MILLION!!!!
Deutschland Deutschland UNTER alles!!!!!!!
All arguments aside, the german law forbids an attacking war to be started from german soil, they still have their binding obligations to NATO, but hell, scumbag socialist Schroeder and his greenslime Fischer wanted to win an election so they LIED to the public!!!!
Serves them damn well right!!!!! And todays figure for unemployment are the highest in Europe 4.71 MILLION!!!!
Deutschland Deutschland UNTER alles!!!!!!!
Don said: LG. There is an argument that the US presence in most of Europe should be withdrawn. Whilst its true that having personnel close to any trouble allows the US to participate in any necessary UN action more swiftly I think its been demonstrated that the US can get troops anywhere it wants anytime it likes anyway...
The fact that US personnel are present in Europe is viewed by many Europeans as unnecessary and largely to the benefit of the US rather than anyone else today.
And I know that historically that was not true. Mind you Europe paid heavily for US involvement in WW2. And I mean *paid*. Its no coincidence that once British war debts to the US were paid off that a number of US bases were in the UK were closed.
Hi,
Not too much arguement here, except to say that now that Europe feels secure because the Warsaw Pact no longer exists, they all of a sudden forget or discount the amount of aid and security the US provided for nearly 60 years. True, there may have been benefit to the US as well, but to be sure, the first daphodils to be trampled by Soviet T-72's would have been in German front yards, not American ones. There's no getting around it that most of Europe was able to spend vast amounts of money on other things for the past 50 years rather than maintain the military necessary to provide for their own security especially when viewed as a % of GDP as compared to pre-1945 levels. So Europe was indeed the primary beneficiary of US presence. I agree that we should reevaluate our presence there, but I dislike how little loyalty is displayed by many EU countries now that they no longer need us. I just hope the next time they need our help, and history would seem to indicate that they will, that we remember and not hasten to their aid so fully, completely or unconditionally.
As far as British war debt, this was reduced to 1/6th the actual amount of goods shipped by the Marshall Plan in 1948. It was further reduced by the leases on several bases. The British did repay these discounted amounts. No value judgement here, simply stating the facts...
Jim'85TE 
Should it be determined that we need a US military presence on the continent, let's establish bases in Poland. They are very good allies, they love the US, their economy could use the boost and as the cost of living is considerably less, the US would save hundreds of millions of dollars. Besides, Polish food is much better than that Kraut swill anyway.
For someone who gets so upset at being tagged a gasbag you seem pretty relaxed about name calling yourself. I'm sure a lot of our German friends would object to their food being described as "Kraut Swill" (or themselves as Krauts for that matter). This type of post seems to typify a breed (Yanks) that spout jingoistic crap and then wonder why lots of people around the world hate them.
Personally I have done a lot of business in the US over the years and have a lot of American friends. I like your country but I have to say that on the whole Americans (most of whom do not travel and have little understanding of the world outside their own country) seem to be the most insular and parochial people I have come across. (Including "Krauts").
BTW I think a lot of Europeans would not shed any tears if all US bases over here were to close.
Listen Jim,
Nobody's doubting the good old US's military credentials ito firepower and I'm certainly not disputing/grateful for it's decisive role during WWII and effectively overcoming the post war communist threat.
Forgive me but there are suggestions in the MOD that you're beginning to sound like that guy (Kevin Kline?) in 'A Fish Called Wanda' who seems hell bent on ramming the undoubted virility of your military prowess down every other poor sucker's throat!
Which is a
shame since I for one am a complete Yankophile but an equally aggressive British patriot - in that, I am not alone - despite the media protrayal of many Brits as milk-livered Euro friendly water voles.
It was Britain who stood alone and did not fall or wilt against the Nazi blitzkreig and it was just this sceptred isle that stood for a short time between a total Third Reich of a fortress Europe and Gawd knows what fate for you chaps.
And frankly, let's not forget the Russian effect on Panzer depletion.
So circumstances beyond US control or design must also be given consideration in the contemplation of WWII's outcome.
As far as any latter day anti-Americanism on mainland Europe is concerned, I tend to share your dismay but wouldn't express it so bluntly. There's bugger all worse than somebody with power or wealth that wears it badly.
If you're going to have an empire, at least conduct it with a little finesse.
Chin, chin and see you in Baghdad.
Nobody's doubting the good old US's military credentials ito firepower and I'm certainly not disputing/grateful for it's decisive role during WWII and effectively overcoming the post war communist threat.
Forgive me but there are suggestions in the MOD that you're beginning to sound like that guy (Kevin Kline?) in 'A Fish Called Wanda' who seems hell bent on ramming the undoubted virility of your military prowess down every other poor sucker's throat!
Which is a
shame since I for one am a complete Yankophile but an equally aggressive British patriot - in that, I am not alone - despite the media protrayal of many Brits as milk-livered Euro friendly water voles. It was Britain who stood alone and did not fall or wilt against the Nazi blitzkreig and it was just this sceptred isle that stood for a short time between a total Third Reich of a fortress Europe and Gawd knows what fate for you chaps.
And frankly, let's not forget the Russian effect on Panzer depletion.
So circumstances beyond US control or design must also be given consideration in the contemplation of WWII's outcome.
As far as any latter day anti-Americanism on mainland Europe is concerned, I tend to share your dismay but wouldn't express it so bluntly. There's bugger all worse than somebody with power or wealth that wears it badly.
If you're going to have an empire, at least conduct it with a little finesse.
Chin, chin and see you in Baghdad.
Jim, the thing you should remember is that history teaches us that Empire's / Superpowers come and go.
The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans/Italians, & the Brits all had empires that bestrode the world & looked as if they were invincible.
Be cocky while you can, it's for sure that whether it's this century or next another dominant power (whether it's religion based or a nation state) will replace the States.
Additionally, given that the UK is your only ally of any substance, it's probably a good idea not to 'large it' on this website.
The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans/Italians, & the Brits all had empires that bestrode the world & looked as if they were invincible.
Be cocky while you can, it's for sure that whether it's this century or next another dominant power (whether it's religion based or a nation state) will replace the States.
Additionally, given that the UK is your only ally of any substance, it's probably a good idea not to 'large it' on this website.
lotusguy said:
I don't know how old you are... or the strength of your memory (although your grasp of geography seems a little wanting)...But, once upon a time there was this Big, Bad Giant called the Warsaw Pact, and they scared the p*ss out of all the good peoples of Europa, who turned to the Protectors called Yanks and cried "You must save us from that big bad giant"...
I started off reading this thread thinking yep fair point, but please remember that it's not just the US with a presence in Germany the BAOR should currently stand at around 20,000 plus dependants (although that is seriously depleated currently as most are being deployed to Kuwait) after the Gulf thing is done and dusted they will be back in Germany and alot of German towns depend on their local Garrisons, with the locals shit scared for their economies if they withdraw. Hameln for instance has almost nothing else apart from UK forces and they give a huge boost. However it should be remembered that it currently suits the UK to leave these troops out there as we simple haven't got the room to bring them home (all the old barracks are now being used for asylum seekers
) there are also many other good reasons for keeping a presence. So the US aren't the sole "keepers of European security" It's called mutual benefit between allied nations. Anyway after I got half way down the thread and read the above quote I'm sorry but you've got my goat on this one your kind your of egotistical "the sun shines from the arse of the US of A" type attitude really sinks, lets get something straight the US is not a charity it doesn't do things overseas out of the goodness of it's heart or some moral obligation, otherwise it would have been much more active in Africa over the past twenty years (apart from the brief little arse kicking and humiliation it got in Somalia) US overseas policy and military activity clearly reflects what the US thinks is good for them at the time, now don't get me wrong not many other countries are any different us included but please cut the self righteous shit and get real the UK and the rest of Europe owe the US fcuk all, sure history has shown that the US has been involved in the past and has stood shoulder to shoulder with us but as already said it did that because it was good for them and at best mutually beneficial. You are not gods nation, you are not all powerfull, and for sure you do not have the moral right to dictate global policy. Your kind of gung ho righter than right stars and stripes shit stinks and is the worst kind of nationalistic bollocks possible.
I write about this with personal experience of having worked very closely for several years with the US military overseas and having witnessed your kind of twisted ego close up and first hand (fortunately I was in a position of enough authority to squash it) I can honestly say Mr Lotusguy your kind of patriotism is the worst kind and your views aren't welcome. There are a hell of a lot of fair, honest and balanced US citizens out there its just unfortunate that in my experience probably 50% of their military has the twisted belief it being all powerfull typified in Lotusguys posts from a "former US naval aviator". The Best of the Best my arse Lotusguy you are a fool.
Whilst I might not like Lotus Guys style of presentation (or even some of the content sometimes) I am disturbed by the reaction to it and indeed to anything American, by some on this site.
To be blunt, I think some of you lot are deeply hypocritical!
I too travel extensively in the USA ( I've been in 46 states of the Union so far!) and I've met ALOT of people during those travels.
I think the USA is a truly remarkable country. It's nothing at all like the TV and Hollywood film images we have of it over here. Most Americans I meet are warm, gregarious, generous people, and they really truly deeply love their country. They take the kind of pride in being American that, frankly I think we could do with a little more of over here (in being British! )There is no shame in flying the US flag, no PC councillor telling them not to have Christmas celebrations in case it offends someone, or banning library books cos they have pigs in them. True, they have other kinds of nutters, a litigious streak, and can be a bit brash and cocky, but hey, nobody's perfect!
I stay in small towns, eat in local diners and family run restaurants, deal with people of all levels from shop floor workers to the CEO of $20billion+ corporations. I've met very few I couldn't get along with (and those I couldn't were generally termed as assholes by my American colleagues too)
I've been welcomed, bought meals and drinks by complete strangers who were delighted to meet someone from England, invited into peoples homes at times of family or festive celebrations simply cos I was in town at the time and they didn't want me to be on my own whilst they were having fun. This has happened many times. Middle America is a genuine place, full of great people in my honest opinion.
Sometimes the sense of humour is a bit off wack to my ears and for many Americans irony is something to be done after the laundry But all in all America gets a big thumbs up from me.
But, being a Brit travelling stateside is also quite an eye opener. Many (most?) Americans are quite parochial. Some have never left the state of their birth, let alone travelled abroad. Their news media reinforces this sense of insularity. There is almost no foreign news reporting. Thats not to say that the people are not interested, quite the contrary in my experience, it's just that the media is USA obsessed.
Amazingly many ordinary Americans actually watch Prime Ministers question time from the HoC ! I kid you not!
Several times I've been caught out by people in bars who, on hearing my accent will start to tackle me about how Tony Blair performed at PMQs today! They don't understand that hardly anyone watches that stuff over here!
Being such a rich nation and proud of their independance in all things, means that they simply don't have to look elsewhere in order to enjoy their way of life, and for many it's a pretty good way of life.
The Americans don't understand their image in the outside world because most of them don't understand that the world is different in fundamental ways to the American perception of it. Many think that everyone lives like Americans do, to a greater or lesser degree. This is dissapointing, but it is getting better.
After 911 I sent messages of sympathy to friends in the USA (some of whom were personally involved in the tragedy) but I also pointed out that, whilst the new found US war on terror was admirable in its way, we also needed to stop groups like NORAID freely raising funds for the IRA in Irish bars across the North East USA! Terrorists are viscious wether they are arabs or Irish mafia! It came as quite a shock to many American colleagues that so many people had died at the hands of terrorists in NI over the last 40 years, and that the Yanks had paid a significant ammount towards the cost of the ammo and semtex used! But they listened, and I was told by friends in Boston recently that NORAID fundraising in that area had all but dried up now.
911 was a wake up call for the USA in so many ways, and I don't think we've yet to see all the fall out from the long terms changes in US policy towards the rest of the world.
Looking forward though, it's clear that what Americans do value, more than anything else IMHO is loyalty.
Their view of WW2 and the cold war may be a bit skewed to many European eyes but the basic thrust of public opinion in the USA is that the US saved France and protected Germany and now they are being betrayed by those countrys. America (and by that I mean it's people) will NOT forget this quickly!
The UK is seen as a strong, loyal friend, and I doubt America will forget that either.
Whilst the Europeans might want US troops out now, and many, including some on this site will sneer and thumb their noses at the Yanks I cannot help but think that this, in it's own way, is as reprehensible an attitude as the American insularity you rail against.
Many people will have formed a view of America and Americans purely from TV, Hollywood and a quick 2 weeks in Florida. Some seem intent on simply jumping on the next fashionable bashing band waggon.
Lotus guy has his way of expressing himself, but I can think of others on this site who can be equally challenging in the way they express themselves sometimes (Deltaf, Derestrictor, even Carzee for example) and we don't dismiss their views simply because of a stereotypical view we might hold of their country of birth do we?
I know its fashionable to bash the yanks and we all think we know all about America, so that gives us all the ammo we need, apparently. But honestly Boys and Girls, when you take this view you are truly being as ignorant, arrogant and as parochial as you accuse transatlantic cousins of being.
Andy 400se
To be blunt, I think some of you lot are deeply hypocritical!
I too travel extensively in the USA ( I've been in 46 states of the Union so far!) and I've met ALOT of people during those travels.
I think the USA is a truly remarkable country. It's nothing at all like the TV and Hollywood film images we have of it over here. Most Americans I meet are warm, gregarious, generous people, and they really truly deeply love their country. They take the kind of pride in being American that, frankly I think we could do with a little more of over here (in being British! )There is no shame in flying the US flag, no PC councillor telling them not to have Christmas celebrations in case it offends someone, or banning library books cos they have pigs in them. True, they have other kinds of nutters, a litigious streak, and can be a bit brash and cocky, but hey, nobody's perfect!
I stay in small towns, eat in local diners and family run restaurants, deal with people of all levels from shop floor workers to the CEO of $20billion+ corporations. I've met very few I couldn't get along with (and those I couldn't were generally termed as assholes by my American colleagues too)
I've been welcomed, bought meals and drinks by complete strangers who were delighted to meet someone from England, invited into peoples homes at times of family or festive celebrations simply cos I was in town at the time and they didn't want me to be on my own whilst they were having fun. This has happened many times. Middle America is a genuine place, full of great people in my honest opinion.
Sometimes the sense of humour is a bit off wack to my ears and for many Americans irony is something to be done after the laundry
But all in all America gets a big thumbs up from me. But, being a Brit travelling stateside is also quite an eye opener. Many (most?) Americans are quite parochial. Some have never left the state of their birth, let alone travelled abroad. Their news media reinforces this sense of insularity. There is almost no foreign news reporting. Thats not to say that the people are not interested, quite the contrary in my experience, it's just that the media is USA obsessed.
Amazingly many ordinary Americans actually watch Prime Ministers question time from the HoC ! I kid you not!
Several times I've been caught out by people in bars who, on hearing my accent will start to tackle me about how Tony Blair performed at PMQs today! They don't understand that hardly anyone watches that stuff over here!
Being such a rich nation and proud of their independance in all things, means that they simply don't have to look elsewhere in order to enjoy their way of life, and for many it's a pretty good way of life.
The Americans don't understand their image in the outside world because most of them don't understand that the world is different in fundamental ways to the American perception of it. Many think that everyone lives like Americans do, to a greater or lesser degree. This is dissapointing, but it is getting better.
After 911 I sent messages of sympathy to friends in the USA (some of whom were personally involved in the tragedy) but I also pointed out that, whilst the new found US war on terror was admirable in its way, we also needed to stop groups like NORAID freely raising funds for the IRA in Irish bars across the North East USA! Terrorists are viscious wether they are arabs or Irish mafia! It came as quite a shock to many American colleagues that so many people had died at the hands of terrorists in NI over the last 40 years, and that the Yanks had paid a significant ammount towards the cost of the ammo and semtex used! But they listened, and I was told by friends in Boston recently that NORAID fundraising in that area had all but dried up now.
911 was a wake up call for the USA in so many ways, and I don't think we've yet to see all the fall out from the long terms changes in US policy towards the rest of the world.
Looking forward though, it's clear that what Americans do value, more than anything else IMHO is loyalty.
Their view of WW2 and the cold war may be a bit skewed to many European eyes but the basic thrust of public opinion in the USA is that the US saved France and protected Germany and now they are being betrayed by those countrys. America (and by that I mean it's people) will NOT forget this quickly!
The UK is seen as a strong, loyal friend, and I doubt America will forget that either.
Whilst the Europeans might want US troops out now, and many, including some on this site will sneer and thumb their noses at the Yanks I cannot help but think that this, in it's own way, is as reprehensible an attitude as the American insularity you rail against.
Many people will have formed a view of America and Americans purely from TV, Hollywood and a quick 2 weeks in Florida. Some seem intent on simply jumping on the next fashionable bashing band waggon.
Lotus guy has his way of expressing himself, but I can think of others on this site who can be equally challenging in the way they express themselves sometimes (Deltaf, Derestrictor, even Carzee for example) and we don't dismiss their views simply because of a stereotypical view we might hold of their country of birth do we?
I know its fashionable to bash the yanks and we all think we know all about America, so that gives us all the ammo we need, apparently. But honestly Boys and Girls, when you take this view you are truly being as ignorant, arrogant and as parochial as you accuse transatlantic cousins of being.
Andy 400se
Well said Andy - LG might not be everyone's favourite, but he has his point of view, and like all of us on here is perfectly entitled to express it, as long is it refrains from getting personal and insulting.
Long may the PH Spirit remain.
And in Derestrictor's best words - God save the Queen
Long may the PH Spirit remain.
And in Derestrictor's best words - God save the Queen
Good post Andy 400se
I agree with most of it, I like Americans and would take them as partners ahead of France and Germany any day of the week. It's humourless like LG I object to.
BTW, the difference between Carzee & Co and this guy is a sense of humour and irony. Read his post on monikers and see if you dont agree.
I agree with most of it, I like Americans and would take them as partners ahead of France and Germany any day of the week. It's humourless
like LG I object to. BTW, the difference between Carzee & Co and this guy is a sense of humour and irony. Read his post on monikers and see if you dont agree.
paul-b said: BTW, the difference between Carzee & Co and this guy is a sense of humour and irony. Read his post on monikers and see if you dont agree.
OK, just read that. hadn't seen it before. Seems like LG might have suffered a sense of humour by pass episode back then. New guys often do this, but then they settle down. Judging by LGs helpful posts on the Lotus forums I reckon he's adding value to the collective now!
Lets forgive and forget eh?
Group hug everyone?
Andy 400se
Well said Andy - I do agree with the majority of what you say and when you work / deal with 'normal' Americans you actually realise that they are no different to the rest of us (regardless of where you are from). I think the problem is that we (the royal we that is) often see the extreme and we leap on this as being typical of americans..... which is stereotypical and hypocritical.... In fact the number of Americans that I have met recent that hate G W Bush is actually quite alarming!
Still, we all have differing views on major events in our history. Personally the people that won WW2 were the Russians... but thats another story. Its natural to try and put a personal / patriotic slant to most things, but in reality its all very different...
Cheers,
Paul
Still, we all have differing views on major events in our history. Personally the people that won WW2 were the Russians... but thats another story. Its natural to try and put a personal / patriotic slant to most things, but in reality its all very different...
Cheers,
Paul
I hope that the views of Mr. Lotusguy are not typical. He talks about friendship between nations, but it seems to me the friendship he means is a conditional one. "You are my friend, as long as you agree with me and do as I wish." Friendship can't survive without the ability to respect differing views.
And, andymadmak, criticism of the US of A has got nothing to do with "yank bashing", provided the criticism is brought forward in a balanced and respectful way, much like your own post.
Every player, probably even Bush, certainly Blair, feels uneasy about the US threatening to ignore the Security Council's vote. They know that this would undermine the UN. France's and Germany's view is that this is too high a price to pay. The US and Britain feel that it were the lesser evil.
Both sides have very good arguments to support their point of view. But it should not - and I think, will not - change the way we continue to deal with each other.
And, andymadmak, criticism of the US of A has got nothing to do with "yank bashing", provided the criticism is brought forward in a balanced and respectful way, much like your own post.
Every player, probably even Bush, certainly Blair, feels uneasy about the US threatening to ignore the Security Council's vote. They know that this would undermine the UN. France's and Germany's view is that this is too high a price to pay. The US and Britain feel that it were the lesser evil.
Both sides have very good arguments to support their point of view. But it should not - and I think, will not - change the way we continue to deal with each other.
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