Liability in car park ?
Discussion
Okay, hands up, I wasn't looking too closely but it was bl**dy early...
I managed to drive into the mother of all pot holes in the British Rail car park at the station I use for work. Now its either damaged the alloy, steering rack or one of the rods.
This pot hole must have been there for a while & is a fair size, so, what are the chances of BR accepting liabilty or is it a no goer as its private ?
Thanks in advance,
Ross
I managed to drive into the mother of all pot holes in the British Rail car park at the station I use for work. Now its either damaged the alloy, steering rack or one of the rods.
This pot hole must have been there for a while & is a fair size, so, what are the chances of BR accepting liabilty or is it a no goer as its private ?
Thanks in advance,
Ross
adrian jaye said: it's regarded as private property,
its not a public highway
insurance companies either way are not "obliged"
they "may" pay out but there under no obligation
So if your car gets damaged at say TESCO,s carpark (private property) IYO , would they not be obliged either.
not sure mate BB
adrian jaye said: it's regarded as private property,
its not a public highway
insurance companies either way are not "obliged"
they "may" pay out but there under no obligation
If it's Private property why park there, surely it's a Public car park while the store/Station is open, are there any disclaimers posted saying "We [insert name] accept no responsibility for damage caused while using our car park" ?
The "queens highway" is the only place which is open to the public, any other place, ie car parks, farm land, is private land.
The owner may allow you to park there, but are under no obligation to pay out as neither will there insurance companies.
for example, no one can tell you to move on if you are parked legally on the road, if you park on my front garden or if I have a private forecourt (as in I own that land) or land, I can tell you to fcuk off.
a mate of mine a while ago, was delivering papers to a farm, he drove up onto the guy's land, got outta his car, delivered the papers, got bvack, and a trractor had written off his car.
Farmer said, "opps soory", but niether his insurance would pay out or tried to get anything back from the farmer, COS it was private land.
I'm not saying you "coulndt" get anything back, what I am saying is it depends on 1) the ammount of the claim 2) the insurance company involved.
They are under NO obligation to pay out. Private land/ private property is still private, there is nothing in law which says otherwise, if you dont belivev me, check it out, but not from hearsay.
I learned about this from having to study this as part of public liability, powers of arrest etc, in one of my jobs.
The owner may allow you to park there, but are under no obligation to pay out as neither will there insurance companies.
for example, no one can tell you to move on if you are parked legally on the road, if you park on my front garden or if I have a private forecourt (as in I own that land) or land, I can tell you to fcuk off.
a mate of mine a while ago, was delivering papers to a farm, he drove up onto the guy's land, got outta his car, delivered the papers, got bvack, and a trractor had written off his car.
Farmer said, "opps soory", but niether his insurance would pay out or tried to get anything back from the farmer, COS it was private land.
I'm not saying you "coulndt" get anything back, what I am saying is it depends on 1) the ammount of the claim 2) the insurance company involved.
They are under NO obligation to pay out. Private land/ private property is still private, there is nothing in law which says otherwise, if you dont belivev me, check it out, but not from hearsay.
I learned about this from having to study this as part of public liability, powers of arrest etc, in one of my jobs.
I'm not entirely sure on the Road Traffic Act provision, I studied it a few years ago and thought that there was some definition that included "normally/easily accessible to the public" or similar which then meant that the RTA included car parks and the like? I thought that this is why motor sport paddocks and roadways (not tracks obviously!!) are subject to the RTA and we get reminders with tickets etc. about complying with the requirements even though it is private property.
The other solution is to go back, fall in the pot hole, hurt yourself and claim under their Occupiers Liability Insurance!!
The other solution is to go back, fall in the pot hole, hurt yourself and claim under their Occupiers Liability Insurance!!
OK - just had a quick look at the legal stuff on this and it does look to me like carparks are probably not covered by the RTA unless you can argue that they are "highway", so, if the incident was on a road to the station that was part of the carpark you might be able to have a go (subject to the rest of the definition of highway).
I'd be tempted to have a shot at it anyway, you've got nothing to lose and they might just pay up to get shot of you!
I'd be tempted to have a shot at it anyway, you've got nothing to lose and they might just pay up to get shot of you!
A tesco car park for instance is not subjest to the RTA so you can do burnouts there all day IMHO. However the land is owned by tesco's who provide a parking facility to you as their customer. They will always refute liability and often post signs to that effect but it doesn't mean they aren't liable. It's up to you to prove it. So if their lighting fails and your car drops into a 12 ft deep hole it's definately their fault. I'm sure of it. You may get paid out after 1 letter or it may be passed onto the insurers in which case you may have or not have a delay or argument over liability.
Did you pay to use the car park ?
Not an expert on this but normally as soon as money changes hands a contract has been entered into. Which doesn't really help unless you can prove that their side of the contract is to provide a surface to their car park which isn't going to damage your car.
Get out clauses of the 'not liable for damage to your car whilst in our car park' are normally to cover for parking accidents, theft etc. Does this reasonably apply whilst you are trying to get into the car park.
And just to question some points made earlier, especially about the guys car being written off by a tractor. My house insurance includes cover for (public ?) liability. I thought, because if someone is on your property (especially but not limited to when they have been invited, for example delivering something that presumably the Farmer ordered) and something happens to them you can be held liable, surely the same would apply to a Farmer reversing his Tractor into your car.
Not an expert on this but normally as soon as money changes hands a contract has been entered into. Which doesn't really help unless you can prove that their side of the contract is to provide a surface to their car park which isn't going to damage your car.
Get out clauses of the 'not liable for damage to your car whilst in our car park' are normally to cover for parking accidents, theft etc. Does this reasonably apply whilst you are trying to get into the car park.
And just to question some points made earlier, especially about the guys car being written off by a tractor. My house insurance includes cover for (public ?) liability. I thought, because if someone is on your property (especially but not limited to when they have been invited, for example delivering something that presumably the Farmer ordered) and something happens to them you can be held liable, surely the same would apply to a Farmer reversing his Tractor into your car.
Occupiers liability under the Occupiers Liability Act is restricted to personal injury only as far as I can tell and not damage to property.
Presumably you could try an action under common law negligence (duty of care, breach of the duty that then caused the damage), any exclusion clause may or may not be valid.
I'd always have a go at them, send then a couple of letters holding them liable, make sure you persevere after the first couple of letters - they might get bored and just pay!
I'm still in favour of the going back and falling in the hole yourself!
Presumably you could try an action under common law negligence (duty of care, breach of the duty that then caused the damage), any exclusion clause may or may not be valid.
I'd always have a go at them, send then a couple of letters holding them liable, make sure you persevere after the first couple of letters - they might get bored and just pay!
I'm still in favour of the going back and falling in the hole yourself!
andyparrott said:
And just to question some points made earlier, especially about the guys car being written off by a tractor. My house insurance includes cover for (public ?) liability. I thought, because if someone is on your property (especially but not limited to when they have been invited, for example delivering something that presumably the Farmer ordered) and something happens to them you can be held liable, surely the same would apply to a Farmer reversing his Tracitor into your car.
just to verify, he tried "all" routes and was plainly told that as it was private properrty he could not claim.
he didnt give up easy, writing off £5grands worth of car is somethnig you dont usually walk away from
Boosted LS1 said: A tesco car park for instance is not subjest to the RTA so you can do burnouts there all day IMHO.
However the land is owned by tesco's who provide a parking facility to you as their customer.
you've answered your own question,
1) it IS private property
2) you have been "invited" to use it
therefore at your own risk, no liability.
mmm "burnouts" now thats somethine usefull and productive to do. Excess adrenaline ? ever thought of track days ?
safer, legal and your not gonna damage anything, including yourself
adrian jaye said:
Boosted LS1 said: A tesco car park for instance is not subjest to the RTA so you can do burnouts there all day IMHO.
However the land is owned by tesco's who provide a parking facility to you as their customer.
you've answered your own question,
1) it IS private property
2) you have been "invited" to use it
therefore at your own risk, no liability.
mmm "burnouts" now thats somethine usefull and productive to do. Excess adrenaline ? ever thought of track days ?
safer, legal and your not gonna damage anything, including yourself
Adrian, I didn't say I do burnouts but was trying to illustrate that RTA doesn't apply as evidenced by the lack of the police to stop people behaving like this
. I have other hobbies to keep me busy. I know of at least one person who has claimed against a supermarket and won. They were PI matters. I don't know how damage to property applies but I reckon a successful claim could be made.
Boosted LS1 said: A tesco car park for instance is not subjest to the RTA so you can do burnouts there all day IMHO. However the land is owned by tesco's who provide a parking facility to you as their customer. They will always refute liability and often post signs to that effect but it doesn't mean they aren't liable. It's up to you to prove it. So if their lighting fails and your car drops into a 12 ft deep hole it's definately their fault. I'm sure of it. You may get paid out after 1 letter or it may be passed onto the insurers in which case you may have or not have a delay or argument over liability.
ok lets try again....
1) ok sorry, accept you were not infering you were doiing doughnuts
2) in theory, do doughnuts to your hearts content and they can not, prosecute you as it is "private land".
However, I think a few other things would apply,
is a serious crime being commited ? if yes, then it doesnt matter it being on private land.
a prosecution of public, nisance and or noise could stop it. the point being, in theory no. but the police being police can more or less find something, even if its stopping you on the way home from doing doughnuts,
as it is private land, the owners can throw you off as part of the tresspass laws.
basically, with "ANY" private property, you have NO right of way and you are only granted access as long as the owners give you it.
the point is if "you" "me" or the duke of windsor has an accident in a car on anywhere other than the "queens highway" or place specified where your car is parked , say garage or offraod "as these to are private property"
neither your or the other insurance company are liable, they are not obliged even moreso if you have a big liability.
I'm "not" saying it's not possible to try for a claim, you may be able to get something. but you are not entitiled and not covered in any way shape or form.
This has been discussed elsewhere previously and the answer was 'it depends'.
If you park your car at a pub car park, get pissed and then go back to the car to retrieve something, then you can be arrested for being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle. Same result if you are in your own drive.
MadCop said (many times)
>> Edited by m-five on Monday 10th March 17:23
If you park your car at a pub car park, get pissed and then go back to the car to retrieve something, then you can be arrested for being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle. Same result if you are in your own drive.
MadCop said (many times)
To prove that somewhere is a 'public place' for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act it must be shown by the prosecution that
1. Those people who are admitted to the place in question are members of the public and are admitted as such, not as a member of a special or particular class of the public (such as belonging to an exclusive club) or as a result of some special characteristic that is not shared by the public at large.
AND
2. Those people are so admitted with the permission, express or implied, of the owner of the land in question.
Whether a place is in fact a public place is a question of fact for a court to decide. This means that different magistrates courts can arrive at different decisions when presented with the same facts. Some examples which have been held as being public places in relation to R.T.A. 1988 are
a) Privately owned caravan site open to campers.
b) A school playground used outside school hours as a liesure park by members of the public.
c) The inward frieght immigration lanes at Dover Eastern Docks.
d) A field used in connection with an agricultural show.
e) a multi storey car park ( not a road though unless under exceptional circumstances)
For a place which is ostensibly public in its nature to become a private place either permanently or temporarily, there needs to be some form of physical obstruction to be overcome in order to enter that place. Therefore a pub landlord, by ordering people to leave the car park of his pub, has not done enough to turn what was a public place during licensing hours into a private place. If a gate or barrier is closed then that would suffice.
In deciding whether or not a place is in fact a 'public place', magistrates may use their own local knowledge, but must be circumspect in doing so.
So if your work car park is open to public access in their vehicles or on foot and people do just that not particularly employees but say, milkman, postman, or other trades people and your company that own the car park give express or implied permission that they can do so, then it would in all probability be a public place. If it has a barrier or gate across it and it is used solely for employees (such as an underground car park with the offices above), then it would not qualify as a public place
In relation to the criminal law, 'Public place' has a completely different meaning.
>> Edited by m-five on Monday 10th March 17:23
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