Barrackroom Lawyers?
Discussion
Sorry for such an OT post, but I've just had a run-in with the neighbours (the Council) about damage to the boundary. Before I start throwing money at solicitors (we may need injuctions as well as claims for damages), can anyone confirm:
Fence:
Who owns it? We have the 'pretty side' (without the cross bars visible), which I thought meant we owned it and had to maintain it. The Council Surveyor reckons they own it and can therefore do what they like (I'll still bill them for storm damage repairs we did).
Wall:
Has cracked in two places. Once by an old tree (though not as old as the wall) planted too close, and poorly maintained. Second place due to a bush seeding into their side of the wall, and being ignored for at least 10 years (we assumed it was in the ground, until the cracks started appearing). I claim negligence, he claims act of nature, we should have spotted it and gone round to rip it out (nice that they have given me access rights though). There is no doubt that the wall is ours.
There's no argument about the causes, just responsibility. So, am I right or wrong about the fence ownership? And can I do them for neglect?
Any advice gratefully received. Otherwise, apologies for wasting your time.
Fence:
Who owns it? We have the 'pretty side' (without the cross bars visible), which I thought meant we owned it and had to maintain it. The Council Surveyor reckons they own it and can therefore do what they like (I'll still bill them for storm damage repairs we did).
Wall:
Has cracked in two places. Once by an old tree (though not as old as the wall) planted too close, and poorly maintained. Second place due to a bush seeding into their side of the wall, and being ignored for at least 10 years (we assumed it was in the ground, until the cracks started appearing). I claim negligence, he claims act of nature, we should have spotted it and gone round to rip it out (nice that they have given me access rights though). There is no doubt that the wall is ours.
There's no argument about the causes, just responsibility. So, am I right or wrong about the fence ownership? And can I do them for neglect?
Any advice gratefully received. Otherwise, apologies for wasting your time.
Although I'm not sure of the legal standing, any boundry divider put up should have the 'pretty' side facing the property that *dosen't* own it. i.e your neighbour can't put up a fence and give you the less aesthetic (sp?) view.
I'm sure some legal type will give you more accurate info and it should be on your deeds/searches when purchasing, but this is what I was told when querying boundry ownership in the past.
Sparks
I'm sure some legal type will give you more accurate info and it should be on your deeds/searches when purchasing, but this is what I was told when querying boundry ownership in the past.
Sparks
I've always understood that the pretty side is on the outside, facing away from the property that owns it. Therefore it belongs to your neighbours (or, at least, they originally erected it which is not necessarily the same thing).
Word of advice - think very carefully before instigating or fuelling a neighbourly feud. They can get very unpleaant and make your life a misery. People have ended up moving from a house they love simply to escape from a feud that had become unbearable.
Word of advice - think very carefully before instigating or fuelling a neighbourly feud. They can get very unpleaant and make your life a misery. People have ended up moving from a house they love simply to escape from a feud that had become unbearable.
Hi Rich,
What you need is the deeds to your property they will show you exactly who owns what boundary. Until you have got these is pure speculation as to who owns what.
As far as the Fence appearance is concerned, If you got the PRETTY side then I would say it ain't yours. IIRC It is customary (if not law) to give your neighbour the pretty side.
Hope this helps.
What you need is the deeds to your property they will show you exactly who owns what boundary. Until you have got these is pure speculation as to who owns what.
As far as the Fence appearance is concerned, If you got the PRETTY side then I would say it ain't yours. IIRC It is customary (if not law) to give your neighbour the pretty side.
Hope this helps.
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works - but I disagree with the comments re the fence situation. Apologies if I am wrong on this.
I am 99% confident that the the fence owner gets the pretty side - although it may seem strange. The logic behind this being that whoever pays for it gets that privilege.
On boundaries - this is harder than ever to establish. You can order Office Copies of your property from the Land Registry. You can find the order forms online but the plans themselves are not available on line. Costs about £8 a throw IIRC.
Neighbourly disputes are unpleasant - I have experience of this. However, you have to choose the lesser of the two evils, i.e. if something is affecting you and its fundamentally a wrong doing against you or your property - and you are quite sure that you are in the right, then go for it. Emphasis has to be on making sure that you are indeed 'in the right'. A half hour with a solicitor would not go amiss, especially of you go armed with Land Registry documents - which only an expert can really interpret.
Good luck and keep us posted.
I am 99% confident that the the fence owner gets the pretty side - although it may seem strange. The logic behind this being that whoever pays for it gets that privilege.
On boundaries - this is harder than ever to establish. You can order Office Copies of your property from the Land Registry. You can find the order forms online but the plans themselves are not available on line. Costs about £8 a throw IIRC.
Neighbourly disputes are unpleasant - I have experience of this. However, you have to choose the lesser of the two evils, i.e. if something is affecting you and its fundamentally a wrong doing against you or your property - and you are quite sure that you are in the right, then go for it. Emphasis has to be on making sure that you are indeed 'in the right'. A half hour with a solicitor would not go amiss, especially of you go armed with Land Registry documents - which only an expert can really interpret.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Forget which side of the fence faces you and get a copy of the deeds, your solicitor should have provided you with a copy when you bought the house. This will show which you own. If you do not own the fence I am afraid its to late to bill the council for repairs, you can try and they may pay but they do not have to.
With regard to the tree damage you may have an action in nuisance for an injunction and damages against the council but this will depend on the extent to which damage was foreseeable. Did you warn them of the problem, if you did hope you kept copies. For that one you will need a lawyer.
With regard to the tree damage you may have an action in nuisance for an injunction and damages against the council but this will depend on the extent to which damage was foreseeable. Did you warn them of the problem, if you did hope you kept copies. For that one you will need a lawyer.
OK - just phoned the missus who is a solicitor. Owner gets the nice side of the fence, period. All we have to do is find the proof source for that in legal statute. I know it does sound arse about face - but that's the law. And who said the law always makes sense?
You may find the following of some use: www.adviceguide.org.uk/...sing/neighbour_disputes.htm
>> Edited by TUS 373 on Tuesday 25th March 16:40
You may find the following of some use: www.adviceguide.org.uk/...sing/neighbour_disputes.htm
>> Edited by TUS 373 on Tuesday 25th March 16:40
tonybav said: Forget which side of the fence faces you and get a copy of the deeds, your solicitor should have provided you with a copy when you bought the house. This will show which you own. If you do not own the fence I am afraid its to late to bill the council for repairs, you can try and they may pay but they do not have to.
With regard to the tree damage you may have an action in nuisance for an injunction and damages against the council but this will depend on the extent to which damage was foreseeable. Did you warn them of the problem, if you did hope you kept copies. For that one you will need a lawyer.
I'd agree wrt the fence.
As for the wall i would have thought that if your wall has been damaged, regardless of whether by plant action over 10 years or by a vehicle impact in 5 seconds, your property has been damaged beyond normal weathering and wear&tear and as such you would have a claim.
Ugly side yours, pretty side theirs by common agreement but not by law TUS 373, it's def. not the other way round, but it's not binding however, when you get the boundary plan (you should have this, but some solicitors are pretty slack) it will have a red T on each boundary. If the T is on your side of the fence it's your fence, if it's on their's it's their's, if there are two Ts with the 'legs' touching (H shape) then it's a shared boundary aka party wall. Period.
As has been mentioned you don't need a solicitor to get the boundary plan and it would be worth checking if you've got one before you shell out £8 on a copy. BTW if at all possible go to a Land Reg. office rather than doing it online, the online service is V. slow.
Edited 'cos it didn't make sense. S'right now, I knew that second glass was a bad idea at lunchtime
>> Edited by mrsd on Tuesday 25th March 16:36
As has been mentioned you don't need a solicitor to get the boundary plan and it would be worth checking if you've got one before you shell out £8 on a copy. BTW if at all possible go to a Land Reg. office rather than doing it online, the online service is V. slow.
Edited 'cos it didn't make sense. S'right now, I knew that second glass was a bad idea at lunchtime
>> Edited by mrsd on Tuesday 25th March 16:36
I've had to look into this before and if it's not explicit in your deeds, it's not as straightforward as "pretty" side. It depends on things like who's recently (last 10 years) taken responsibility for the fence, have payments been split, what is the convention for the other houses in the road, etc. Easiest is to agree joint maintenance - easy if it's a neighbour, not so easy if it's the council, I imagine.
Thanks again for your help, this is going to get really messy
- My gaff is a conversion flat. We own the freehold between us, but can I find a copy of the overall deeds?
- The fence may appear to be theirs, but it is an extension of the wall. There's no doubt about the wall (seeing as part of our house is built on it)
- Over the nine years I've been resident, the Council won't be able to demonstrate any maintenance of the fence. We can demonstrate some, backed up by receipts (especially if I actually apply the preservative I bought a few months back!)
- My Land Registry Office is bizzarely halfway across the country.
Looks like it's one for the solicitor, then a note to my councillor (who happens to be leader of the council and something of a 'name' in local government)
But thanks again
- My gaff is a conversion flat. We own the freehold between us, but can I find a copy of the overall deeds?
- The fence may appear to be theirs, but it is an extension of the wall. There's no doubt about the wall (seeing as part of our house is built on it)
- Over the nine years I've been resident, the Council won't be able to demonstrate any maintenance of the fence. We can demonstrate some, backed up by receipts (especially if I actually apply the preservative I bought a few months back!)
- My Land Registry Office is bizzarely halfway across the country.
Looks like it's one for the solicitor, then a note to my councillor (who happens to be leader of the council and something of a 'name' in local government)
But thanks again
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