Revocation of Cleric’s Citizenship ...
Discussion
This is new labour after all.
apache said: 1 down........
If you expose yourself to mainstream media, at this point in our nation's history, you might be forgiven for thinking that Islam is our main religion.
Whilst one can argue with much force that any pretence of Britain claiming to be a predominantly Christian nation on account of it's apparent mass secularity validates the (TV) media's current obsession with all things Islamic by virtue of the impression that most, if not the overwhelming majority of Asian folk, are demonstrably devout in their religious convictions and practices, I think the seeds of social strife are being (perhaps unconsciously) fertilised a little too enthusiastically by the professionally politically correct classes.
I must say, that I feel as if I am having Islam and all it's attendant thought processes rammed down my throat by the media.
I feel as if 'concessions' to Islamic sensibilities are everywhere and references to the practice of the religion are being normalised as 'default' within Britain's way of life.
For example, any literature from our local council seems to be bent over backwards in focusing on the needs and multiple religious celebrations of a community which by now, should be fully integrated in the locale but in fact, operates as a parallel micro-society. And I have no issue with the freedoms of individuals to practice this or that but one cannot avoid the obvious emphasis apportioned by largely white, middle class liberals, to such activities.
This is not seen as a celebration of diversity as the auto-cue propganda suggests, more an indictment of increasingly irreconcilable pre-ordained social systems.
Hamza is an extremist. But his extremism stems from an unavoidable interpretation of a particular faith.
Now, amongst this media push, to sell me and my kids at school that GSCE Islam is relevant to anything that we are likely to experience in life is an interesting consideration: nobody asked us, or as per this media uber-spin, tried to illuminate the benefits of Judaeism or Hinduism...so why Islam?
What is it about this particular religion, which has followers who refer to people like me as 'the infidel' and actively speak out for it's universal adoption whether I like it or not, that this country - on so many levels - feels so compelled to embrace and promote?
The BNP are unlikely to make huge gains because it is populated by many intellectual pygmies and frankly, racism per se is undoubtedly an ugly, revolting thing.
But people will levitate their way and this should surprise nobody.
Hamza is a traitor and a thoroughly nasty piece of work, end of story. But his ilk give unfortunate credability to the festering perception of Islam as an 'enemy within' type entity.
What am I saying? Well, I suppose in summary, Hamza should have been strung up by the Islamic community long ago but also, the positive discrimination in favour of Islamic coverage is as positive discrimination ever is - a resolutely negative approach for the achievement of genuine social harmony.
Sorry if I've offended anyone but these issues need debating if genuine fascism is to be avoided in years to come.
Blimey, bit heavy for Saturday. Sorry all.
>> Edited by derestrictor on Saturday 5th April 12:00
put him in a basket, and send him to israel 
Yes people like him and his followers give foreigners in Britain a bad name and unwittingly he is probably increasing support for the BNP.
I heard someone on the radio few days ago who said America shouldnt attack iraq, two wrongs didn't make a right [which is a good point] but then he went on to say he wanted to strap a bomb to himself and blow up a street of people. Taking a verbal beating he was cut off air
serves the b
r right!
Yes people like him and his followers give foreigners in Britain a bad name and unwittingly he is probably increasing support for the BNP.
I heard someone on the radio few days ago who said America shouldnt attack iraq, two wrongs didn't make a right [which is a good point] but then he went on to say he wanted to strap a bomb to himself and blow up a street of people. Taking a verbal beating he was cut off air
serves the br right!Deristrictor I won't disagree with you. Although a long time away, I can almost forsee a time where Islam will be the most popular religion in the UK, as an osmosis process occurs. What then for the country? Will we see an Islamic government?
I know that this sounds daft but a conversion from within could happen as increasing numbers of Islamic people either enter the country and/or increasing numbers of people adopt Islam as their religion.
Quite frankly the possibility (however remote) scares me. But I do not know the solution. Banning Islam is obviously both wrong and out of the question. Do we ban religious parties to prevent an Islamic government, or any other religious government from being formed? (Not sure if they are allowed anyway - anyone know at all?)
Does it matter in the scheme of things which religion is most popular in the country? For me not really as I don't believe in religion at all.
The other point to this is how do we control increasing numbers of racist/extreme parties using the rise of Islam as a recruiting tool, extremism breeds extremism and the streets of the UK could become a battle ground as opposing sets of unreasonable people seek to destroy/remove one another.
Bit of a ramble this, but my point is (I think!), as long as religion cannot be used as a political tool or a religious party be allowed we should be ok.
A rather rambling Phil
(methinks I should organise my thoughts more before I post)
I know that this sounds daft but a conversion from within could happen as increasing numbers of Islamic people either enter the country and/or increasing numbers of people adopt Islam as their religion.
Quite frankly the possibility (however remote) scares me. But I do not know the solution. Banning Islam is obviously both wrong and out of the question. Do we ban religious parties to prevent an Islamic government, or any other religious government from being formed? (Not sure if they are allowed anyway - anyone know at all?)
Does it matter in the scheme of things which religion is most popular in the country? For me not really as I don't believe in religion at all.
The other point to this is how do we control increasing numbers of racist/extreme parties using the rise of Islam as a recruiting tool, extremism breeds extremism and the streets of the UK could become a battle ground as opposing sets of unreasonable people seek to destroy/remove one another.
Bit of a ramble this, but my point is (I think!), as long as religion cannot be used as a political tool or a religious party be allowed we should be ok.
A rather rambling Phil
(methinks I should organise my thoughts more before I post)
Why should an Islamic government be allowed? Is a more likely question.
At the moment at least its a relative minority sport over here, and to be quite frank, i dont want to be ruled by a religion, full stop.
Religions of the conventional type(in my opinion) are for the feeble minded, who need something to hang on to, they cannot handle the fact that there is NOTHING at the end of life, so they fabricate these fables to give them comfort.
Fine, do that, but dont even dare to try and impose that shit on me. Religion is for suckers, for the half witted, for those who want to be ruled. Bollox to that!
If theres any religion anywhere that id have as my own, it would be one based on speed...thou shalt not dawdle!
flameon.....
At the moment at least its a relative minority sport over here, and to be quite frank, i dont want to be ruled by a religion, full stop.
Religions of the conventional type(in my opinion) are for the feeble minded, who need something to hang on to, they cannot handle the fact that there is NOTHING at the end of life, so they fabricate these fables to give them comfort.
Fine, do that, but dont even dare to try and impose that shit on me. Religion is for suckers, for the half witted, for those who want to be ruled. Bollox to that!
If theres any religion anywhere that id have as my own, it would be one based on speed...thou shalt not dawdle!
flameon.....
There are imponderables here which are sullying the analysis.
Here we are, Britain, the UK.
Now, are we a single, multiple-denominational or secular state?
If singular - which is what we certainly have been for most of the last thousand years - then the cohesion of society is best served by the general acknowledgement of that faith above all others.
This means that the establishment is intrinsic as per the state/(protestant) church formula since H Mk VIII said 'up yours {Delores?}' to The Vatican.
This basic relationship is an endemic part of British subjegation and frankly, that's that...
However, in the wake of the light of the ages of enlightenment and tolerance, such a state of affairs does not require non-establishment religious proscrptions. Rather, they are not 'promoted' or normalised.
The second concept, which is what we supposedly have now, is the multi-faith system. I feel, as I've posted earlier, that for debateable reasons, this is doomed to failure.
By the imbalanced promotion of 'secondary' faiths, many noses are 'put out' and wrightly or wrongly, the resentment may set in...
The third assessment, that we are, in this 'modern world,' effectively secular in societal operation and orientation, might offer the best way forward.
The state simply dissestablishes itself from The C of E and proceeds to ignore the relevance of faiths, per se (very 'The Second Coming,' I know).
This enables Gladys Postlethwaite to attend her local evensong session with the vicar but doesn't prevent young Akhtar from listening to his favourite Iman of a Friday afternoon...of course, if we're going to integrate properly, quite what Akhtar's secular school chums are going to think of his strange dispensations is yet more grist to the diffuclties..?
A truly secular state would not allow such a thing.
It's a truly complex issue but suggestions should (and would) be welcome!
Here we are, Britain, the UK.
Now, are we a single, multiple-denominational or secular state?
If singular - which is what we certainly have been for most of the last thousand years - then the cohesion of society is best served by the general acknowledgement of that faith above all others.
This means that the establishment is intrinsic as per the state/(protestant) church formula since H Mk VIII said 'up yours {Delores?}' to The Vatican.
This basic relationship is an endemic part of British subjegation and frankly, that's that...
However, in the wake of the light of the ages of enlightenment and tolerance, such a state of affairs does not require non-establishment religious proscrptions. Rather, they are not 'promoted' or normalised.
The second concept, which is what we supposedly have now, is the multi-faith system. I feel, as I've posted earlier, that for debateable reasons, this is doomed to failure.
By the imbalanced promotion of 'secondary' faiths, many noses are 'put out' and wrightly or wrongly, the resentment may set in...
The third assessment, that we are, in this 'modern world,' effectively secular in societal operation and orientation, might offer the best way forward.
The state simply dissestablishes itself from The C of E and proceeds to ignore the relevance of faiths, per se (very 'The Second Coming,' I know).
This enables Gladys Postlethwaite to attend her local evensong session with the vicar but doesn't prevent young Akhtar from listening to his favourite Iman of a Friday afternoon...of course, if we're going to integrate properly, quite what Akhtar's secular school chums are going to think of his strange dispensations is yet more grist to the diffuclties..?
A truly secular state would not allow such a thing.
It's a truly complex issue but suggestions should (and would) be welcome!
deltaf said
I think the beginning of a new political party has been founded and they speak my heart! where do I sign?
[how many probability votes do you need to secure before you can be classed as a running political party (like greenies or commies)?]
dont even dare to try and impose that shit on me. Religion is for suckers, for the half witted, for those who want to be ruled. Bollox to that!
If theres any religion anywhere that id have as my own, it would be one based on speed...thou shalt not dawdle!
I think the beginning of a new political party has been founded and they speak my heart! where do I sign?
[how many probability votes do you need to secure before you can be classed as a running political party (like greenies or commies)?]
deltaf said:Religions of the conventional type(in my opinion) are for the feeble minded, who need something to hang on to, they cannot handle the fact that there is NOTHING at the end of life, so they fabricate these fables to give them comfort.
Fine, do that, but dont even dare to try and impose that shit on me. Religion is for suckers, for the half witted, for those who want to be ruled. Bollox to that!
I also totally share this point of view and I would be quite interested in knowing the opinion(s) of American PHers.
Thom said:
deltaf said:Religions of the conventional type(in my opinion) are for the feeble minded, who need something to hang on to, they cannot handle the fact that there is NOTHING at the end of life, so they fabricate these fables to give them comfort.
Fine, do that, but dont even dare to try and impose that shit on me. Religion is for suckers, for the half witted, for those who want to be ruled. Bollox to that!
I also totally share this point of view and I would be quite interested in knowing the opinion(s) of American PHers.
I'm with Deltaf and Thom on this as well - but I'm English - so no American opinion just yet!
Phil
Edited to add: Having re-read it again, that weakminded and halfwitted is a bit too strong and that I hope that those PHers who do believe in one religion or another don't take too much offence. Suffice it to say that I don't believe, but I will die defending your right to...etc etc.
Phil
>> Edited by mannginger on Saturday 5th April 13:22
Forgot to say that I respect religion (Christianism that is) for it has helped our ancestors build our society how it is now and is undeniably linked to our ways of thinking and our culture(s) - which I am proud of.
However the practice of religion has IMHO become obsolete by today's standards and I do find quite appaling some world class leader prays before board meetings, as if it could help solve important issues.
>> Edited by Thom on Saturday 5th April 13:30
However the practice of religion has IMHO become obsolete by today's standards and I do find quite appaling some world class leader prays before board meetings, as if it could help solve important issues.
>> Edited by Thom on Saturday 5th April 13:30
deltaf said:Religions of the conventional type(in my opinion) are for the feeble minded, who need something to hang on to, they cannot handle the fact that there is NOTHING at the end of life, so they fabricate these fables to give them comfort.
Fine, do that, but dont even dare to try and impose that shit on me. Religion is for suckers, for the half witted, for those who want to be ruled. Bollox to that!
You're going to burn in the eternal fires of damnation ! Tormented by demons ! With no possibility of redemption ! Repent now !!!!
Is the distressingly widely held view of my compatriots
in the least secular of western countries. An American president can be drunk, womanising, drug abusing, wife beating, power crazed, physically/mentally infirm (or all of the above) and be accepted and even lauded, but heaven (no pun intended) help him if he should fail to profess Christian views.
mrsd said:
You're going to burn in the eternal fires of damnation ! Tormented by demons ! With no possibility of redemption ! Repent now !!!!
Tormented by demons?? Oh yeah right...lolol can just see it now...them prodding me with a pike, and me yellin at em to feck orf!
Never really bothered me that...Death, now that does worry me some..... To quote Woody Allen;" Im not afraid of death, i just dont want to be there when it happens"..
Thom said: Forgot to say that I respect religion (Christianism that is) for it has helped our ancestors build our society how it is now and is undeniably linked to our ways of thinking and our culture(s) - which I am proud of.
However the practice of religion has IMHO become obsolete by today's standards and I do find quite appaling some world class leader prays before board meetings, as if it could help solve important issues.
>> Edited by Thom on Saturday 5th April 13:30
sorry Thom, our new found religion accepts no exclusions, all or nothing, may the head of all the pistons strike down the unbelievers (T2000) and may the sun shine eternally on our roads of rightousness.
I dunno, it's anough to make you want to strap a car to yourself and go for a blast
>> Edited by apache on Saturday 5th April 15:36
mannginger said:
Thom said:
deltaf said:Religions of the conventional type(in my opinion) are for the feeble minded, who need something to hang on to, they cannot handle the fact that there is NOTHING at the end of life, so they fabricate these fables to give them comfort.
Fine, do that, but dont even dare to try and impose that shit on me. Religion is for suckers, for the half witted, for those who want to be ruled. Bollox to that!
I also totally share this point of view and I would be quite interested in knowing the opinion(s) of American PHers.
I'm with Deltaf and Thom on this as well - but I'm English - so no American opinion just yet!
Phil
Edited to add: Having re-read it again, that weakminded and halfwitted is a bit too strong and that I hope that those PHers who do believe in one religion or another don't take too much offence. Suffice it to say that I don't believe, but I will die defending your right to...etc etc.
Phil
>> Edited by mannginger on Saturday 5th April 13:22
Here here. Or hear hear, as appropriate.
Life's too short to worry about what's at the end of it, and far too short to spend most of it munching carpet, counting beads or singing tunelessly.
I've had discussions like this with Saudis: they told me I was wrong, I told them they were. But I wasn't publicly beheaded for it. Mind you, I did wipe a slice of bacon on their sarnies when they were at prayers...
Governmental decision-making should be exempt from religious considerations of any persuasion. Religion is a hobby (or did Derestrictor mention a sport?) that should be enjoyed by those who wish to, rather like badger-baiting or football-hooliganism; but not forced upon those who prefer paedophilia or sports-car driving as a focus for their devotions.
Ian
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