Discussion
Just had a phone call off my mother at work. The story is that my Dad spotted some bloke acting strangely coming up the hill towards their house. He was ranting and carrying a crowbar. As he was watching him a car came down the hill which he has taken a swipe at with his crowbar and smashed his windscreen. At this point my Dad has gone outside to tell my mother, who was about to go out, not to go down the hill, go the other way etc. While he was telling her this he runs over to his gate to the driveway to close it, and my mother sees this bloke opening the gate, ranting incoherently and brandishing his crowbar. In the meantime my dad is running into the garage to grab something for protection. As he comes out of the garage this bloke is advancing on my mum. My dad shouts something at him, so the bloke comes at him instead, at which point my dad cracks him one with whatever he has in his hand at the time.
And calls him an Ambulance.
Now, the worry is, what are the police going to say about this. They have questioned him and will be getting back, but my worry is they are going to charge him with ABH or somesuch nonesense. Bear in mind he is 70 years old. The way some of these stories go, I really am worried for him.
Do any of you think he (and me) should be worried. I think he did things right from what I've heard, any of you any experience of this ? Any Advice ? All will be gratefully received.
And calls him an Ambulance.
Now, the worry is, what are the police going to say about this. They have questioned him and will be getting back, but my worry is they are going to charge him with ABH or somesuch nonesense. Bear in mind he is 70 years old. The way some of these stories go, I really am worried for him.
Do any of you think he (and me) should be worried. I think he did things right from what I've heard, any of you any experience of this ? Any Advice ? All will be gratefully received.
Get the details of the car driver as a witness to the fact that he was in "cause injury mode".I owuld hope that the hospital report would reveal if the guy was mentally unstable and/or had a bloodstream full of chemicals.
The fact that he fell to the floor on your property with a crowbar in his hand, after opening a private property gate should be enough (i believe self defense works if your weapon is a match for his or worse, i.e. not a handgun). Also appeal for witnesses, i.e. anyone in street who saw his behaviour and that car driver who was swiped at.
Lastly if you're dad is getting on a bit himself, please reassure him he'll be ok (even if you don't know yourself) last thing he needs is to worry himself stupod. He has my support, i don't advocate the use of violence for anything, but he protected your mother, his property and his neighbours and for that reason should be made to feel as if he acted correctly!!
Good luck, i really hope you get on ok!!
Drop by on your way home with a bottle of scotch or something
The fact that he fell to the floor on your property with a crowbar in his hand, after opening a private property gate should be enough (i believe self defense works if your weapon is a match for his or worse, i.e. not a handgun). Also appeal for witnesses, i.e. anyone in street who saw his behaviour and that car driver who was swiped at.
Lastly if you're dad is getting on a bit himself, please reassure him he'll be ok (even if you don't know yourself) last thing he needs is to worry himself stupod. He has my support, i don't advocate the use of violence for anything, but he protected your mother, his property and his neighbours and for that reason should be made to feel as if he acted correctly!!
Good luck, i really hope you get on ok!!
Drop by on your way home with a bottle of scotch or something
Shirely this is self defence.
The fella had a crowbar and was being generally threatening to those around him. You can I believe go and kick the shit out of someone who is attacking someone else quite legally under the self defence ruling.
Madcop, Gemini, JR, 999 et al will know for sure though.
Matt.
The fella had a crowbar and was being generally threatening to those around him. You can I believe go and kick the shit out of someone who is attacking someone else quite legally under the self defence ruling.
Madcop, Gemini, JR, 999 et al will know for sure though.
Matt.
I have called my Mum back and she says this bloke actually attacked the Police when they arrived at the scene, so they should have a pretty clear picture of the guy's state of mind. He knows a few lawyers, so hopefully will have contacted one already, but I don't know what sort of a state he's in. I'm going to finish work early and get up there. The scotch may be a good Idea.
To answer Apache, we live in a place called Todmorden. They are quite out of the way, but have neighbours. I hope one of them saw this go off.
I'll keep you posted, but thanks for your support, it's appreciated.
To answer Apache, we live in a place called Todmorden. They are quite out of the way, but have neighbours. I hope one of them saw this go off.
I'll keep you posted, but thanks for your support, it's appreciated.
self defence is either defending act of violence, or a presumed act of violence, subject to the reasonable man test etc. Anticipation of an attack is therefore allowable self defence (I think its Beckford 1988 precedent case). There is also a need to show that in a fight situation, the "defender" would prefer not to fight, but this does not mean to retreat to the point of being against the wall and taking a hit first.
The driver of the vehicle will be very instrumental in your proof of fear of impending violence. The weapon your father used, together with his physical size, in comparison to the nutters weapon and physical size would also have a large bearing on any charge.
Good on your dad for taking pre emptive action (isn't this what the war is all about too?)
I'd get a solicitor involved, but not an idiot of one who'll not know how to handle the situation. Just be very, very careful what you say as mens rea is very important in these situations, and your depiction of the events also plays a large part to illustrate your(father's) point of view and extreme fear of being attacked etc etc.
The driver of the vehicle will be very instrumental in your proof of fear of impending violence. The weapon your father used, together with his physical size, in comparison to the nutters weapon and physical size would also have a large bearing on any charge.
Good on your dad for taking pre emptive action (isn't this what the war is all about too?)
I'd get a solicitor involved, but not an idiot of one who'll not know how to handle the situation. Just be very, very careful what you say as mens rea is very important in these situations, and your depiction of the events also plays a large part to illustrate your(father's) point of view and extreme fear of being attacked etc etc.
A quick Google turned up this which might provide some help - although I would guess it would be best to get some legal advice ASAP
www.bsdgb.co.uk/law.htm
Hope it all works out ok for your dad, and for what it's worth I think I would have done the same thing.
Phil
Edited to add a few bits which stand out:
Common Law:
The concept of the defence exists both at common law and by statute. At common law the defence has existed for centuries and permits a person to use reasonable force to:
1. defend himself from attack
2. prevent an attack on another person
3. defend his property
In addition to the common law defence, section 3 (1) of the Criminal Law Act 1967 (the statutory defence) provides that:
"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."
So your dad could well argue that he was defending both himself and his wife.
Statutory Law:
There is considerable overlap between the common law and statutory defences. It was held in Cousins2 that both defences are available to an accused on the same facts.
If the victim strikes an attacker in self defence, he could contend at common law that he was using reasonable force to defend himself. He could also contend that he was using reasonable force to prevent a crime from being committed, namely an assault against himself. This second argument is the statutory defence.
But if this guy really was off his nut, there could be an issue in that:
Conversely, there are circumstances where a person cannot rely on the statutory defence: for example, where the perpetrator of the offence he is trying to prevent is below the age of criminal responsibility (doli incapax)4 or is insane or is acting in a state of automatism and for these reasons is not considered capable in law of committing a crime. In these circumstances, since no crime will have been committed, the person will be able to rely only on the common law defence.
Either way I really hope your dad doesn't end up in trouble.
Phil
>> Edited by mannginger on Tuesday 8th April 15:37
www.bsdgb.co.uk/law.htm
Hope it all works out ok for your dad, and for what it's worth I think I would have done the same thing.
Phil
Edited to add a few bits which stand out:
Common Law:
The concept of the defence exists both at common law and by statute. At common law the defence has existed for centuries and permits a person to use reasonable force to:
1. defend himself from attack
2. prevent an attack on another person
3. defend his property
In addition to the common law defence, section 3 (1) of the Criminal Law Act 1967 (the statutory defence) provides that:
"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."
So your dad could well argue that he was defending both himself and his wife.
Statutory Law:
There is considerable overlap between the common law and statutory defences. It was held in Cousins2 that both defences are available to an accused on the same facts.
If the victim strikes an attacker in self defence, he could contend at common law that he was using reasonable force to defend himself. He could also contend that he was using reasonable force to prevent a crime from being committed, namely an assault against himself. This second argument is the statutory defence.
But if this guy really was off his nut, there could be an issue in that:
Conversely, there are circumstances where a person cannot rely on the statutory defence: for example, where the perpetrator of the offence he is trying to prevent is below the age of criminal responsibility (doli incapax)4 or is insane or is acting in a state of automatism and for these reasons is not considered capable in law of committing a crime. In these circumstances, since no crime will have been committed, the person will be able to rely only on the common law defence.
Either way I really hope your dad doesn't end up in trouble.
Phil
>> Edited by mannginger on Tuesday 8th April 15:37
As he comes out of the garage this bloke is advancing on my mum. My dad shouts something at him, so the bloke comes at him instead, at which point my dad cracks him one with whatever he has in his hand at the time.
And calls him an Ambulance.
SELF DEFENCE!
As the nutter was advancing on your father with a weapon in hand he is quite within his rights to whack him with something.
The law on self defenced is somewhat rather vague:
a basic outline of it is:
any person can can use whatever force they deem necessary at the time to defend themselves, however they must be fully prepared to explain/justify their actions at a later date.
Basically your father has to decide what was necessary to defend himself against personal injury - but must provide a reasonable explanation for his actions - which he clearly can do. - The bloke was about to whack him with a crowbar - he is in his 70's - he cant run, he probably isnt a super fit martial arts expert, so disarming him with a couple of swift kicks is out of the question (no offence intended) - The nutter has got a weapon, your father is entitled to use something to defend himself.
As told to me by a policeman a few years ago after and almost similar incident (I hit the nutter round the side of the head with a tin of Baked Beans0
- The best excuse that you can give is - I WAS IN FEAR OF MY PERSONAL SAFETY AND THAT OF THE OTHERS AROUND ME - ACTUALLY I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE! and to top it all - he called an ambulance directly after the event
>> Edited by Marcos maniac on Tuesday 8th April 15:55
As an aside, has anyone stopped to wonder what has happened to our society where, in as clear cut a case like this is, the victim (a 70 year old man) is in fear of prosecution for defending his wife, himself and his property from a crowbar wielding maniac who entered his property uninvited .
>> Edited by apache on Tuesday 8th April 15:55
>> Edited by apache on Tuesday 8th April 15:55
You are at liberty to use reasonable force to prevent imminent injury to yourself, damage to property or injury to a third party. The difficulty is 'reasonable' but if the guy had already caused damage to property and was violent towards the police then it should be clear that your father's actions were entirely reasonable in motivation and magnitude (as the guy was violent when the police arrived I assume your father didn't cause him serious injury.)
Having experienced a situation where I was obliged to defend myself I would advise (as everyone has said) finding a solicitor just in case, but don't panic.
Your father is also very unlikely to be at risk of civil action from the person concerned as his actions towards the person he believed to be threatening him were not taken with total disregard to that person's safety. In civil law, providing the action was reasonable, ex turpi causa non oritur actio-no action may arise from a bad cause- applies ie. it was his fault as he committed the initial offence, so the perpetrator of the initial act cannot take counter action against the person who injured him in the course of defending themselves.
The British Self Defence Governing Body is good on this kind of thing, there's a good article by Eric Baskind on the website if you hunt around.
edited to add: as mannginger's just beaten me to saying 
>> Edited by mrsd on Tuesday 8th April 15:57
Having experienced a situation where I was obliged to defend myself I would advise (as everyone has said) finding a solicitor just in case, but don't panic.
Your father is also very unlikely to be at risk of civil action from the person concerned as his actions towards the person he believed to be threatening him were not taken with total disregard to that person's safety. In civil law, providing the action was reasonable, ex turpi causa non oritur actio-no action may arise from a bad cause- applies ie. it was his fault as he committed the initial offence, so the perpetrator of the initial act cannot take counter action against the person who injured him in the course of defending themselves.
The British Self Defence Governing Body is good on this kind of thing, there's a good article by Eric Baskind on the website if you hunt around.
edited to add: as mannginger's just beaten me to saying
>> Edited by mrsd on Tuesday 8th April 15:57
at which point my dad cracks him one with whatever he has in his hand at the time.
And calls him an Ambulance.
"You are an Ambulance!"
sounds a bit Monty Python to me.
seriously though - sounds like your old man will be fine. The police might be nuts, but it takes one to know one and it sounds like your 'ambulance' was definitely nuttier than squirrel-sh1t.
Just to put this at the top of the list again. Your mom is a witness, and I think the police can tell who's right in the head by talking to your dad and the perpetrator. Did he knock the guy out? I wouldn't worry about it. Seems clear cut and police detectives can read people pretty well.
Hi all,
Just got back from my folks house so can update you a bit. It seems the bloke is mentally ill, and known to the Police. The police have told us the following. His girlfriend took him to hospital in Halifax last night from where he absconded. The BiB had been looking for him all night but he walked the 15 miles to Todmorden overnight (there are lots of roads over the moors so I can understand how he did this without being seen). At the time of the incident he was in a bit of a state, apparently he had tried to kill himself by
1) shoving the crowbar down his throat
2) throwing himself in a river
He believes he has a chip implanted behind his ear.
When the Police and ambulance turned up it took 2 coppers to get him into the ambulance to get him back to hospital.
Now, all of this is not the actions of a well man, but the question needs to be asked, how the hell can someone like this be allowed to wander around at liberty ?? For the safety of himself as well as other people he should have either had somebody watching him or been kept in secure accommodation. People should not be exposed to things like this. It is NOT an acceptable risk. Care in the community is all very well, but Jesus!
On a more positive note, the Police will not be taking it any further it seems, and the bloke himself has said he doesn't want to press charges (nice of him). However, my dad has been told that the CPS could see things differently, but it's unlikely.
So it seems things have turned out OK this time, but there are a lot of 'what if's' floating around in my head. But lets hope thats an end to it.
Anyway, thanks for all the messages, this truly is a wonderful group of people
Just got back from my folks house so can update you a bit. It seems the bloke is mentally ill, and known to the Police. The police have told us the following. His girlfriend took him to hospital in Halifax last night from where he absconded. The BiB had been looking for him all night but he walked the 15 miles to Todmorden overnight (there are lots of roads over the moors so I can understand how he did this without being seen). At the time of the incident he was in a bit of a state, apparently he had tried to kill himself by
1) shoving the crowbar down his throat
2) throwing himself in a river
He believes he has a chip implanted behind his ear.
When the Police and ambulance turned up it took 2 coppers to get him into the ambulance to get him back to hospital.
Now, all of this is not the actions of a well man, but the question needs to be asked, how the hell can someone like this be allowed to wander around at liberty ?? For the safety of himself as well as other people he should have either had somebody watching him or been kept in secure accommodation. People should not be exposed to things like this. It is NOT an acceptable risk. Care in the community is all very well, but Jesus!
On a more positive note, the Police will not be taking it any further it seems, and the bloke himself has said he doesn't want to press charges (nice of him). However, my dad has been told that the CPS could see things differently, but it's unlikely.
So it seems things have turned out OK this time, but there are a lot of 'what if's' floating around in my head. But lets hope thats an end to it.
Anyway, thanks for all the messages, this truly is a wonderful group of people
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