Why does it take so long to re-open the road after an accide
Discussion
The M25 has been blocked between jn 6 and 7 all day. The M6 was closed, all night, recently as well. Why does it take so long to clear the road, these days? Is Re-opening the road no longer a priority? Is this inefficiency, incompetence, lack of resourses or a hidden agenda to encourage the use of public transport?
Where people are trapped or injured, I completely agree that everything else should wait until they have been freed, treated and are on their way to hospital, but then the top priority should be to re-open the road. It doesn't look like this is the case, these days.
Anyone know what the "official" polcy is and why?
Where people are trapped or injured, I completely agree that everything else should wait until they have been freed, treated and are on their way to hospital, but then the top priority should be to re-open the road. It doesn't look like this is the case, these days.
Anyone know what the "official" polcy is and why?
I think accidents where serious injuries have occured are treated as potential murder scenes hence the delays while they try to piece together what has happened.
In other cases where there has been say an oil spill, damage may have happened to the road surface which will need to be repaired before the carriageway reopens
In other cases where there has been say an oil spill, damage may have happened to the road surface which will need to be repaired before the carriageway reopens
MTBR said:
The M25 has been blocked between jn 6 and 7 all day. The M6 was closed, all night, recently as well. Why does it take so long to clear the road, these days? Is Re-opening the road no longer a priority? Is this inefficiency, incompetence, lack of resourses or a hidden agenda to encourage the use of public transport?
Where people are trapped or injured, I completely agree that everything else should wait until they have been freed, treated and are on their way to hospital, but then the top priority should be to re-open the road. It doesn't look like this is the case, these days.
Anyone know what the "official" polcy is and why?
I think the long M25 closure today wasn't helped by having 30 tonnes of plasterboard spread across the carriageway !Where people are trapped or injured, I completely agree that everything else should wait until they have been freed, treated and are on their way to hospital, but then the top priority should be to re-open the road. It doesn't look like this is the case, these days.
Anyone know what the "official" polcy is and why?
in Italy when there is an accident the police makes sure that traffic comes first and great attention is paid not to let a build up in traffic for it could create more problems
it is a SCANDAL in UK the way traffic is halted for really no good reason
take the pictures, move the cars and move on...
no, keep everyone stuck until the last hair has been collected, scanned and catalogued
it is a tough job to be a policeman and I respect it very much however there must be a way to minimize the inconvenience for motorists when an accident happens
it is a SCANDAL in UK the way traffic is halted for really no good reason
take the pictures, move the cars and move on...
no, keep everyone stuck until the last hair has been collected, scanned and catalogued
it is a tough job to be a policeman and I respect it very much however there must be a way to minimize the inconvenience for motorists when an accident happens
Edited by Double R on Friday 10th August 16:19
Double R said:
in Italy when there is an accident the police makes sure that traffic comes first and great attention is paid not to let a build up in traffic for it could create more problems
it is a SCANDAL in UK the way traffic is halted for really no good reason
take the pictures, move the cars and move on...
no, keep everyone stuck until the last hair has been collected, scanned and catalogued
it is a tough job to be a policeman and I respect it very much however there must be a way to minimize the inconvenience for motorists when an accident happens
Agreed. I recently missed a ferry due to being stuck on the M25 for over two hours when an accident was investigated. 20 years ago I doubt that I would have been stuck for more than 30 minutes at the most. A massive waste of people's, and companies', time. The cost must run into 10s, or even, 100s of millions of pounds. Plus the extra pollution caused.it is a SCANDAL in UK the way traffic is halted for really no good reason
take the pictures, move the cars and move on...
no, keep everyone stuck until the last hair has been collected, scanned and catalogued
it is a tough job to be a policeman and I respect it very much however there must be a way to minimize the inconvenience for motorists when an accident happens
Edited by Double R on Friday 10th August 16:19
Double R said:
it is a SCANDAL in UK the way traffic is halted for really no good reason
take the pictures, move the cars and move on...
no, keep everyone stuck until the last hair has been collected, scanned and catalogued
it is a tough job to be a policeman and I respect it very much however there must be a way to minimize the inconvenience for motorists when an accident happens
Picture the scene. . . take the pictures, move the cars and move on...
no, keep everyone stuck until the last hair has been collected, scanned and catalogued
it is a tough job to be a policeman and I respect it very much however there must be a way to minimize the inconvenience for motorists when an accident happens
Edited by Double R on Friday 10th August 16:19
You see a crash occur. Looks pretty bad. Do you get out, give a statement to the police? If not, you're causing the forensic examination of crash scenes.
Due to having no third party input on how the crash happened, the police are responsible on divvying out the responsibility by finding out themselves how the crash happened. They examine tyre tracks, debris position and car resting position to see who hit who, before scanning the road to find out if, say, a pin punctured a tyre, thus causing the crash. This, of course, takes time, causes delay but mostly turns up conclusive evidence and therefore ensures justice.
So the witness who didn't stop, saves ten minutes. Everybody behind the accident is held up.
Just my two cents' . . .
yeah its beyond annoying when its an easy clear up and the road still stays closed for hours.... but there was a big mess on the m25 this morning, a fully loaded artic hit a fully loaded tipper on the hardshoulder rolled it over and they both lost their loads across all three lanes
the annoying thing was i passed the broken down tipper at 5.30am, n thiss happened at 7.30, so where were the motorway patrol vehicles that normally jump on you after youve been sitting on the hard soulder for 10 mins? the reason the bloke hit it was obviously because he didnt see it
the annoying thing was i passed the broken down tipper at 5.30am, n thiss happened at 7.30, so where were the motorway patrol vehicles that normally jump on you after youve been sitting on the hard soulder for 10 mins? the reason the bloke hit it was obviously because he didnt see it
iain_cam said:
Double R said:
it is a SCANDAL in UK the way traffic is halted for really no good reason
take the pictures, move the cars and move on...
no, keep everyone stuck until the last hair has been collected, scanned and catalogued
it is a tough job to be a policeman and I respect it very much however there must be a way to minimize the inconvenience for motorists when an accident happens
Picture the scene. . . take the pictures, move the cars and move on...
no, keep everyone stuck until the last hair has been collected, scanned and catalogued
it is a tough job to be a policeman and I respect it very much however there must be a way to minimize the inconvenience for motorists when an accident happens
Edited by Double R on Friday 10th August 16:19
You see a crash occur. Looks pretty bad. Do you get out, give a statement to the police? If not, you're causing the forensic examination of crash scenes.
Due to having no third party input on how the crash happened, the police are responsible on divvying out the responsibility by finding out themselves how the crash happened. They examine tyre tracks, debris position and car resting position to see who hit who, before scanning the road to find out if, say, a pin punctured a tyre, thus causing the crash. This, of course, takes time, causes delay but mostly turns up conclusive evidence and therefore ensures justice.
So the witness who didn't stop, saves ten minutes. Everybody behind the accident is held up.
Just my two cents' . . .
It takes as long as it takes. Suffer it, just remember to always keep some emergency stuff in the car, biscuits, water, a blanket and for you blokes, an old empty pop bottle to piss in if the need arises...
If an incident results in fatal, potentially fatal or serious injuries (ie life changing - I think the chap who was hit on the hard shoulder has serious chest injuries) then the police are obliged to thoroughly investigate the full circumstances. Their duty is to ascertain the full facts and cause of the incident. This level of investigation is not aimed at specifically apportioning blame or prosecuting individuals, but enabling the compilation of a detailed review of all the factors involved and resulting in the production of a detailed independent report (for the coroner (if applicable), the CPS (if appropriate), HA, HSE, relatives and so on).
Incidents on the road network have significant limitations regarding the capturing and gathering of all available evidence. Inevitably there is only one opportunity for the collision investigator (CI) to capture and gather all the available evidence from the scene of an incident on a highway network. This is due to the fact that when traffic is allowed to flow again at the scene, all actual and potential evidence will be lost through the vehicle movements along that section of road surface.
RTC's involve the basic laws of physics including friction and momentum. As a result the investigation requires the capturing of information at the scene, such as:
surface marks, such as skid marks which may be hidden by other vehicles or be some distance from the main scene.
debris and/or vehicle final resting positions.
vehicle and infrastructure damage
vehicle seat positions, controls and wheels should remain unchanged unless necessary to save life.
items such as broken tie-down straps, mobile phones and tachographs.
positions of people on the road
body fluids may be used to identify those involved in the collision and position them at the point of impact
weather, road and driving conditions at the time of the collision or as soon as possible afterwards.
measurement of the road surface skid resistance through carrying out a skid test at or as near to the incident as possible
These facts provide the information required to carry out a reconstruction of the incident and identify what has happened and who, if anyone, is to blame. Witness information is useful as support to the physical evidence but can sometimes be unreliable or just not available. The information provided by witnesses may well be factual but based on assumptions rather than scientific facts.
In order to capture all of the information effectively, a detailed electronic survey of the scene is completed. A topographical survey enables the building of a virtual scene model including the location of key evidence. Additional to this level of evidence are the photographs and/or video taken of the scene as well as key items collected for evidential purposes. Vehicles involved in an incident can provide detailed information and evidence relating to the circumstances. Therefore, vehicle recovery must be carried out by approved agents to ensure continuity of evidence. Good practice necessitates the vehicles are lifted from the scene using damage free techniques. It's not about brushing 30 tonnes of plasterboard to the side of the road, it's about picking up 2 artics, a van and a car without materially affecting any evidence.
Oddly, this all takes time.
As for the comment about the driver not seeing the truck on the hard shoulder, target fixation is a far more likely cause. As for this not happening anywhere else, can I just say "bo
ocks".
Incidents on the road network have significant limitations regarding the capturing and gathering of all available evidence. Inevitably there is only one opportunity for the collision investigator (CI) to capture and gather all the available evidence from the scene of an incident on a highway network. This is due to the fact that when traffic is allowed to flow again at the scene, all actual and potential evidence will be lost through the vehicle movements along that section of road surface.
RTC's involve the basic laws of physics including friction and momentum. As a result the investigation requires the capturing of information at the scene, such as:
surface marks, such as skid marks which may be hidden by other vehicles or be some distance from the main scene.
debris and/or vehicle final resting positions.
vehicle and infrastructure damage
vehicle seat positions, controls and wheels should remain unchanged unless necessary to save life.
items such as broken tie-down straps, mobile phones and tachographs.
positions of people on the road
body fluids may be used to identify those involved in the collision and position them at the point of impact
weather, road and driving conditions at the time of the collision or as soon as possible afterwards.
measurement of the road surface skid resistance through carrying out a skid test at or as near to the incident as possible
These facts provide the information required to carry out a reconstruction of the incident and identify what has happened and who, if anyone, is to blame. Witness information is useful as support to the physical evidence but can sometimes be unreliable or just not available. The information provided by witnesses may well be factual but based on assumptions rather than scientific facts.
In order to capture all of the information effectively, a detailed electronic survey of the scene is completed. A topographical survey enables the building of a virtual scene model including the location of key evidence. Additional to this level of evidence are the photographs and/or video taken of the scene as well as key items collected for evidential purposes. Vehicles involved in an incident can provide detailed information and evidence relating to the circumstances. Therefore, vehicle recovery must be carried out by approved agents to ensure continuity of evidence. Good practice necessitates the vehicles are lifted from the scene using damage free techniques. It's not about brushing 30 tonnes of plasterboard to the side of the road, it's about picking up 2 artics, a van and a car without materially affecting any evidence.
Oddly, this all takes time.
As for the comment about the driver not seeing the truck on the hard shoulder, target fixation is a far more likely cause. As for this not happening anywhere else, can I just say "bo
ocks".bigandclever said:
Lots of bang on, informed comment.
As frustrating as being stuck in queuing traffic is, I'm a bit flummaxed (sp?) by the focus being placed on the police for apportioning blame here. Surely the parties involved in the accident are the people really responsible for causing the delay. The police in this country do a thorough job in order to establish the full facts and ensure appropriate recourse.Were it the case that they paid lipservice to properly accruing evidence, just so that someone else's journey time isn't delayed by more than ten minutes, there would be national outcry. Another example of damned if you do....
Would you be happier being delayed if it were your loved one who was seriously hurt and the police were investigating? It may be some t&&t drove like a loon, caused said loved one to get hurt, would you prefer that the police attempted to prosecute, having kept the road shut and gathered evidence, or just said, ah well, accidents happen, and your loved one is say crippled for life...
Jasandjules said:
Would you be happier being delayed if it were your loved one who was seriously hurt and the police were investigating? It may be some t&&t drove like a loon, caused said loved one to get hurt, would you prefer that the police attempted to prosecute, having kept the road shut and gathered evidence, or just said, ah well, accidents happen, and your loved one is say crippled for life...
And with no investigation, when the other party claims it's your wife's fault, how are you going to be in a position to show it wasn't and secure the compensation she needs to make the most from the rest of her more difficult life ?Venom said:
bigandclever said:
Lots of bang on, informed comment.
As frustrating as being stuck in queuing traffic is, I'm a bit flummaxed (sp?) by the focus being placed on the police for apportioning blame here. Surely the parties involved in the accident are the people really responsible for causing the delay. The police in this country do a thorough job in order to establish the full facts and ensure appropriate recourse.Were it the case that they paid lipservice to properly accruing evidence, just so that someone else's journey time isn't delayed by more than ten minutes, there would be national outcry. Another example of damned if you do....
What evidence is lost by letting traffic move past on a single lane? Does a skid mark suddenly disappear? The way they close a motorway like its some CSI Crime Scene is beyond a joke. Forensic evidence on a motorway my arse.
If they have changed the way they operate, then at least start putting up signs on all the feeders to a motorway closing them off so at least you don't join and then find the queue from hell. Despite the fact that our motorways (esp the M25) have CCTV everywhere, they could at least close off junctions to stop yet more people joining it rather than the delayed response.
I will bet money that the Police were still allowing drivers to join the M25 after they decided to close it.
As per normal, the powers that be help themselves to everyone elses schedule as if it didn't matter. We see this everywhere nowadays. The sanctimony is overwhelming.
This country is a joke. The police get some sort of sick thrill out of being able to close a motorway for 8 hours. It's the same old power-trip complex.
While they are 'investigating' the accident people are missing holidays they've spent all year saving up for, they are missing life changing job interviews, kids birthday parties, relatives or loved ones passing away in hospitals etc. etc. etc.
It's time these idiots were held to account.
While they are 'investigating' the accident people are missing holidays they've spent all year saving up for, they are missing life changing job interviews, kids birthday parties, relatives or loved ones passing away in hospitals etc. etc. etc.
It's time these idiots were held to account.
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