RE: Robb Gravett Driving Course
RE: Robb Gravett Driving Course
Monday 31st December 2007

Robb Gravett Driving Course

Ollie Stallwood heads off to meet ex-BTCC champion Rob Gravett to see if he can improve his skills behind the wheel...



A lot of people think they can drive well. Most would also believe they would know what to do in an emergency situation, when everything starts to go wrong. But as I found out one cold Friday afternoon it is when you are metres away from a wall of cones and travelling at 50 mph in a Mercedes E-Class that you realise perhaps you don’t know it all. So how did I find myself in this situation? I had booked myself in to a driving course at the Transport Research Laboratory in Crowthorne to brush up on my skills behind the wheel. The course in question is the Ultimate Car Control Driving Dynamics Day, run by ex-BTCC champion Robb Gravett.


It was an early start and after some much needed coffee I joined the group of around ten students in a small hut at the side of a large area of deserted tarmac. Gravett then started going through the basics of what happens to a car’s weight when it goes in to a corner. Simple enough stuff, but crucial all the same as it explains where the grip will and won’t be when you turn into a corner. Gravett explains that by having a greater understanding of the effects of braking, accelerating, understeer and roll-oversteer we will be able to change direction even in the most difficult and challenging situations. He says his approach to driving and car control is unique and he claims some people have told him it has saved their life.

He also has different theories on the safest line to take in a corner, which he explains throughout the course. Then it is time to head out for a go ourselves. The course is sponsored by Mercedes and there is an impressive selection of cars, including a few CLK’s, a B-Class SLK, a C-Class Sports Coupe and the E-Class, giving us a feel for both front and rear drive, auto and manual. The cars, I’m told, go through a new set of tyres and brake pads every week.


Gravett says which wheels drive the car matters little as the technique he teaches applies to all cars. For the next couple of hours we spend our time driving quickly through a series of cones, each time with a dedicated tutor sitting alongside. The idea of the exercise is to reach the end of the cones at high speed then turn 180 degrees as tightly as possible, without understeering or oversteering.  By balancing the car correctly with the brake and throttle this can be done safely and efficiently, and with a suprisingly small turning circle, says Gravett.

After practicing the technique a few times I was starting to feel confident that I was mastering Gravett’s special technique. It was shortly after this that I found myself in the E-Class – one of the hardest cars to drive quickly due to its bulk – nudging 50 mph, heading for a cone chicane, and


waiting for the instructor to instruct me to do something. After the point when I thought it inevitable I would hit the cones he shouted for me to brake and use the technique to get around the obstacle without losing control of the car. Somehow I made it round the cones safely, which were designed to simulate a stationary lorry on a motorway, amazed the car actually got me to the other side.  This, the instructor told me, was down to what I had learnt throughout the day and would hopefully become instinctive on the road.

It was now time for lunch and I ate from the buffet efficiently and instinctively as well, confident in the fact I was starting to get the technique. I also had a chance to quiz Gravett as to what it all meant. ‘The ethos behind the day is safety,’ he tells me. ‘This course gives the individual an awareness you can’t get anywhere else in the world and it makes you a massively better driver. It becomes a subliminal reactive process – if you have to think it’s too late. Once you have control and awareness you can extend that to going fast on track days.’

After lunch a track was laid out in cones and we were treated to a ride out with Gravett, where he showed us what we should and shouldn’t do. Then it was our turn to try the new


techniques on the track, using a different line to extend your braking time. I had to agree that the technique may well be safer but whether it was ultimately a quicker way around the circuit, I wasn’t convinced. Without trying a number of different ways to go round the same corner, using a stop-watch it was difficult to tell. What Gravett teaches does seem unique and slightly unorthodox. However, the course does put you in an emergency situation, where you have to think fast to avoid a big accident, and allows you to find out in safety how you would react. Unlike in real-life you then get a few more goes to work out how you would deal with the situation, which of course is very useful. The team know their stuff and the tuition is virtually one-to-one. So if you want to find out how you would react in an emergency situation it may be worth a look. If anything you might get to find out what you don't know rather than what you do know about driving.

Author
Discussion

flattotheboards

Original Poster:

6,689 posts

232 months

Tuesday 1st January 2008
quotequote all
How much is it? Sounds like quite a decent course.

rallycross

13,717 posts

263 months

Tuesday 1st January 2008
quotequote all
I doubt this very much:

He says his approach to driving and car control is unique and he claims some people have told him it has saved their life.

so Rob Gravett has discovered a whole new technique?

sliced bread

202 posts

245 months

Tuesday 1st January 2008
quotequote all
[quote=rallycross

so Rob Gravett has discovered a whole new technique?
[/quote]

Developed it while he was winning the British Saloon Car Championship, apparently. Also says that McLaren sent a rep along to the course and, as a result, they set about a re-design of their car to help incorporate his method in the driving of LH etc.

Gizmo535

18,150 posts

235 months

Wednesday 2nd January 2008
quotequote all
More driver training's always a good thing. However it seems to me that the notion of having 'advanced car control' is only good for situations which you shouldn't be in anyway: you should only have to take fast evasive action if you haven't been reading the road/other road users properly (barring things like black ice and patches of oil, in which cases all the car control in the world won't stop you going straight to the scene of the accident).

That said I'm sure it's good fun and a great idea for those of us who enjoy spirited driving or go on track - although you couldn't prove if it was quicker or not - which for track driving is surely the whole point.

EDLT

15,421 posts

232 months

Wednesday 2nd January 2008
quotequote all
Its unique in that there is only one way to do it. The fact that every racing driver does the same thing doesn't come into it. wink

Jungles

3,587 posts

247 months

Wednesday 2nd January 2008
quotequote all
Gizmo535 said:
More driver training's always a good thing. However it seems to me that the notion of having 'advanced car control' is only good for situations which you shouldn't be in anyway: you should only have to take fast evasive action if you haven't been reading the road/other road users properly (barring things like black ice and patches of oil, in which cases all the car control in the world won't stop you going straight to the scene of the accident).
I agree that "advanced car control" on its own is of relatively limited use.

However, emergency evasive driver training is part of the inner layer of defensive driving. Without it, you will be vulnerable no matter how systematic your driving is.

Hazard perception and driving to a system are important, but they can fail as long as the driver is not perfect (and no driver is perfect). There is also a limit on how one can control and compensate for errors of other drivers.

When things don't go to plan, when the unexpected happens, your training in emergency evasive techniques will be your only defence.

Advanced car control is not necessarily the same as emergency evasive driving or collision avoidance. The latter two are concerned with proper actions to take when an emergency does occur, not just car control.

Some skills to consider are:
  • High-speed lane changes: can you change to a safe lane quickly and safely if a vehicle/animal/pedestrian/cyclist/cargo suddenly swerves/falls into your lane? I've had this sort of situation happen a few times in the past several years (one was a sleeping van driver, another was a poorly secured furniture, and more).
  • Brake-and-swerve: can you perform emergency braking and swerving manoeuvres on straight roads? How about braking and swerving simultaneously, for situations on twisty roads? Happens more often than you might think if you live in the country-side (animals darting across roads were a plague where I used to live).
  • Aquaplaning: do you react and/or recover appropriately to/from aquaplaning?
  • Black ice: do you react and/or recover appropriately to/from black ice? How about black ice affecting traction on one side of the car but not the other? How about black ice affecting only driving and/or steering wheels, causing over/under-steer instead of neutral skid?
  • Secondary collisions: so you have saved yourself in an emergency, but do you recover from this appropriately? Have you made yourself a hazard to other drivers or pedestrians, AFTER a near-miss (one of my friends managed to avoid a tail-ender, only to have someone else skid into her).
Some food for thought, I hope. smile

Edited by Jungles on Wednesday 2nd January 01:25


Edited by Jungles on Wednesday 2nd January 01:28

1

2,732 posts

262 months

Wednesday 2nd January 2008
quotequote all
sliced bread said:
Also says that McLaren sent a rep along to the course and, as a result, they set about a re-design of their car to help incorporate his method in the driving of LH etc.
Bolloxs

So your are telling me some McL middle manager when back to the factory and sat Lewis down to give him to tips on driving?

sliced bread

202 posts

245 months

Wednesday 2nd January 2008
quotequote all
[quote=1
So your are telling me some McL middle manager when back to the factory and sat Lewis down to give him to tips on driving?
[/quote]

No, my friend, I'm not telling you that - I'm telling you what Mr Gravett told us when we attended one of his courses last year.

chris.mapey

4,778 posts

293 months

Wednesday 2nd January 2008
quotequote all
Looks like Ollie got training on "plate handling" & general "lunch tips" as well wink...

Ollie's Article said:
It was now time for lunch and I ate from the buffet efficiently and instinctively as well, confident in the fact I was starting to get the technique.
I'll get my coat...

Chris

PetrolTed

34,466 posts

329 months

Wednesday 2nd January 2008
quotequote all
EDLT said:
Its unique in that there is only one way to do it. The fact that every racing driver does the same thing doesn't come into it. wink
He is suggesting something different though - no trail braking. I did the course last year and it took me a while to grasp what he was on about.

If I understood correctly, Rob Gravett claims that trail braking is not required - it's all brake, release, steer and no combination of braking and steering is to be undertaken - it's one or the other.

I found it very useful and do see what he is advocating. It's a useful kneejerk reaction to learn. I'm still in two minds about whether it's the fastest way to get around a corner on a racetrack, but I found it a useful experience and improved my confidence in cornering.

I went on to do the CarLimits.com course - that takes it a step further with trail braking etc. Interesting to get the different views on what's quickest/what's required.

agent006

12,058 posts

290 months

Thursday 3rd January 2008
quotequote all
PetrolTed said:
brake, release, steer and no combination of braking and steering is to be undertaken
RoSPA can teach you this for £17 a year.

ehasler

8,578 posts

309 months

Thursday 3rd January 2008
quotequote all
agent006 said:
PetrolTed said:
brake, release, steer and no combination of braking and steering is to be undertaken
RoSPA can teach you this for £17 a year.
I'm sure you realise it's not *quite* as simple as that, and also not something that RoSPA would teach wink

I did the course a couple of years ago, and while I'm not convinced it is the only/fastest way to drive quickly, it was useful and even though I'd done other advanced driving courses and have a fair bit of track day and race experience, I still found it worth doing.

PetrolTed

34,466 posts

329 months

Thursday 3rd January 2008
quotequote all
agent006 said:
PetrolTed said:
brake, release, steer and no combination of braking and steering is to be undertaken
RoSPA can teach you this for £17 a year.
And other people will teach you that this isn't the way to do it. smile

Oilchange

9,657 posts

286 months

Friday 4th January 2008
quotequote all
The only way to find out if its a good course is to go and do it.

How much?

chippie

84 posts

264 months

Friday 4th January 2008
quotequote all
Brake, release, steer. Yours for £1250!

ehasler

8,578 posts

309 months

Friday 4th January 2008
quotequote all
chippie said:
Brake, release, steer. Yours for £1250!
Can't remember how much I paid, but it was a fraction of this! Around 300 quid I think?

lazy

19,931 posts

292 months

Friday 4th January 2008
quotequote all
PetrolTed said:
I went on to do the CarLimits.com course - that takes it a step further with trail braking etc. Interesting to get the different views on what's quickest/what's required.
I've done the Carlimits course with Andy Walsh.

Although the Gravett course looks interesting and fun, I often wonder whether its a good idea to mix too many techniques together.

I'd go to another Carlimits course before trying another type as I think its possibly dangerous to combine various driving styles. If you need these skills in a dangerous situation, surely it would be better to only have one 'instinct' installed in your brain than having contradicting techniques ?

cowellsj

681 posts

225 months

Friday 4th January 2008
quotequote all
When it comes to car control in extreme situations, i think a lot of people will just instinctively stamp the brake, yank the steering wheel and hope.

Car makers know this and design their cars to get people out of trouble as much as possible.

I'd also suspect that most people who sign up for a course like this and actively want to improve their driving skills are not generally the ones who need it the most.

Dr S

5,110 posts

252 months

Saturday 5th January 2008
quotequote all
cowellsj said:
When it comes to car control in extreme situations, i think a lot of people will just instinctively stamp the brake, yank the steering wheel and hope.
The thing is that typically people do NOT stamp the break but start squeezing the steering wheel. That's why Mercedes introduced a brake assist to compensate for exactly that. Another typical behaviour is to stare at the obstacle you actually want to get around which only leads to hitting it head on.

I myself learned a lot from this sort of training although I am not so sure how deeply engrained the learned actions and reactions really are after a day or two.

CivicMan

2,211 posts

227 months

Saturday 5th January 2008
quotequote all
A few years ago I remember Gravett in BTCC stuffing it very hard into the wall at the Thruxton chicane at the end of the main straight.

Must have been developing his braking and steering technique at that time!!

Edited by CivicMan on Saturday 5th January 15:58