Focus RS to be front driver....

[MrKipling43]

According to CAR, the new RS is going to be a 300 bhp front wheel drive (mega) hothatch that will be just as 'luxurious' as the ST - air-con, leather, sat-nav etc, etc... which can only lead to the question: why bother?

They've already got a decent hot hatch, so what's the point in spending all that money developing a new one that is hardly any different? Also, I don't know about you, but I reckon that a car with massive flared arches and all kinds of 'rally-inspired' bodywork tomfoolery that is actually a two-wheel drive hot hatch is a bit, well, chavvy.

They (Ford) also give some really weird reasoning for not having four wheel drive and fitting all the luxuries you already get in an ST...

This is on Crash.net - I've bolded the bits of particular interest - it's easier and more relevant to quote this than type out the bum-licking that CAR did!

Crash.net said:

When Ford announced that it would be producing an RS version of the first generation Focus, fast Ford fans all over the world worked themselves into a frenzy of anticipation. It had been ten long years since the Escort Cosworth, and it was about time that we saw another truly fast Ford. The car that arrived was eventually accepted by those in the know as being one of the truly great hot hatchbacks – despite the infamous, and ongoing, diff fiasco. However, in spite of its eventual critical acclaim and cult status, I don’t think anyone would pretend that they weren’t gutted that it wasn’t a true spiritual successor to the late, great Escort ‘Cosseh’. Put simply, it wasn’t a rally car for the road – just another very decent hot hatchback. This was no super saloon to compete with the motor sport cachet of the Evo, Impreza and Cosworth-badged Fords.

A generation on and Ford released the successor to the RS, the ST, alongside yet another completely irrelevant WRC machine at the Autosport Show. The dropping of ‘RS’ signalled that Ford was planning another model to slot into the range above this one – possibly one with a Rallye Sport badge. Possibly four-wheel drive. Possibly something to tie the road cars in more closely with the company’s WRC programme. Possibly 300bhp. Possibly a true successor to the last Cosworth.

Just before Christmas, Ford showed a teaser picture of the new RS to whet our appetites and forums across the internet went mental. The existence of the ST – a car that already has over 200bhp and, following an announcement from Ford, will soon be available with 260bhp – meant that the RS was going to have to be properly special. The teaser pic showed swollen arches, a gaping hole in the front bumper and bonnet vents. A few months earlier, Ford put out a press release saying that it had appointed Jost Capito as its new vehicle line director for Ford Performance Vehicles – a man with an illustrious motor sport career history. This was it: the new Escort Cosworth.

But, yet again, it looks like the prospect of a proper tarmac terrorist with a blue oval on its nose is going to be nothing more than a day dream. This month’s issue of CAR proudly proclaims – in an interview with Capito no less - that the new RS will not be a stripped out road racer and, most disappointingly of all, the new RS will not have four wheel drive.

Which does beg the question: what on earth is the point?

It seems that all we’re getting from Ford is a warmed over ST. Capito says that “The majority of people don’t want stripped-out cars. These days they expect creature comforts.” A fair point, but are the ‘majority’ of people going to buy an essexed-up Focus with a big rear wing, flared arches and no back doors? Are the ‘majority’ of people going to want a car that does 15mpg? Are the ‘majority’ of people going to think, “Yes, I think I will pay a £5-10k premium over the ST for a few extra bhp, a badge and a bodykit”? The answer to all those questions is: no, probably not.

When you put a 300 brake horsepower engine into the front of a family car you are, whether you like it or not, aiming at a very specific audience: the enthusiast. Manufacturers don’t make cars like this to make money – they either do it for motor sport homologation or, the other 999 times out of 1,000, to bath the rest of the range in a warm glow of desirability so they can make more money from the lesser models.

So why not go the whole hog? Capito says, “There’s absolutely no need for four-wheel drive” but I’m afraid that is complete rubbish. Even if he thinks that putting 300bhp through the front wheels of a car is a good idea, or that in engineering terms it’s the most elegant solution, from a desirability point of view (which is what these cars are all about) it makes no sense whatsoever. You only have to look at the success of the Evo and the STi, never mind the fact that a decent Escort Cosworth still sells for £25k, to see that having four-wheel drive adds an exotic element that simply cannot be achieved with only two wheels being driven.

It’s not even a money thing – and that just makes it even more infuriating. The Focus shares its platform with the Volvo C30, which has both the capability to accept a four-wheel drive transmission and a four-wheel drive system that fits it – it would require very little development to put it in a high-power Focus.

I just can’t understand why Ford are taking this approach to the new RS – there is so much potential, both from the point of view of tying the completely irrelevant World Rally Championship into the road car operation and creating another timeless Ford legend.

I had hoped that I was going to be missing the Cosworth badge, not everything that the car should have been. Let's hope this is a very elaborate smoke screen.

The new Focus RS is set to make its debut at the British Motor Show in August.

THANKS FOR THE BOLD HELP

Edited by MrKipling43 on Friday 4th January 10:37

[MJK 24]

It would probably cost them too much to develop a 4wd car as nothing with that floorpan is 4wd.

Then 4wd makes it much much heavier so it needs more than 300bhp to make it go so they have to start reengineering the engine to a higher standard.

It'd just end up overweight and lacking in sparkle. Much like an R32 in comparison to the lighter but better handling GTi.

[jagdpanther]

MrKipling43 said:

According to CAR, the new RS is going to be a 300 bhp front wheel drive (mega) hothatch that will be just as 'luxurious' as the ST - air-con, leather, sat-nav etc, etc... which can only lead to the question: why bother?

They've already got a decent hot hatch, so what's the point in spending all that money developing a new one that is hardly any different? Also, I don't know about you, but I reckon that a car with massive flared arches and all kinds of 'rally-inspired' bodywork tomfoolery that is actually a two-wheel drive hot hatch is a bit, well, chavvy.

They (Ford) also give some really weird reasoning for not having four wheel drive and fitting all the luxuries you already get in an ST...

This is on Crash.net - I've bolded the bits of particular interest - it's easier and more relevant to quote this than type out the bum-licking that CAR did!

Crash.net said:

When Ford announced that it would be producing an RS version of the first generation Focus, fast Ford fans all over the world worked themselves into a frenzy of anticipation. It had been ten long years since the Escort Cosworth, and it was about time that we saw another truly fast Ford. The car that arrived was eventually accepted by those in the know as being one of the truly great hot hatchbacks – despite the infamous, and ongoing, diff fiasco. However, in spite of its eventual critical acclaim and cult status, I don’t think anyone would pretend that they weren’t gutted that it wasn’t a true spiritual successor to the late, great Escort ‘Cosseh’. Put simply, it wasn’t a rally car for the road – just another very decent hot hatchback. This was no super saloon to compete with the motor sport cachet of the Evo, Impreza and Cosworth-badged Fords.

A generation on and Ford released the successor to the RS, the ST, alongside yet another completely irrelevant WRC machine at the Autosport Show. The dropping of ‘RS’ signalled that Ford was planning another model to slot into the range above this one – possibly one with a Rallye Sport badge. Possibly four-wheel drive. Possibly something to tie the road cars in more closely with the company’s WRC programme. Possibly 300bhp. Possibly a true successor to the last Cosworth.

Just before Christmas, Ford showed a teaser picture of the new RS to whet our appetites and forums across the internet went mental. The existence of the ST – a car that already has over 200bhp and, following an announcement from Ford, will soon be available with 260bhp – meant that the RS was going to have to be properly special. The teaser pic showed swollen arches, a gaping hole in the front bumper and bonnet vents. A few months earlier, Ford put out a press release saying that it had appointed Jost Capito as its new vehicle line director for Ford Performance Vehicles – a man with an illustrious motor sport career history. This was it: the new Escort Cosworth.

But, yet again, it looks like the prospect of a proper tarmac terrorist with a blue oval on its nose is going to be nothing more than a day dream. This month’s issue of CAR proudly proclaims – in an interview with Capito no less - that the new RS will not be a stripped out road racer and, most disappointingly of all, the new RS will not have four wheel drive.

Which does beg the question: what on earth is the point?

It seems that all we’re getting from Ford is a warmed over ST. Capito says that “The majority of people don’t want stripped-out cars. These days they expect creature comforts.” A fair point, but are the ‘majority’ of people going to buy an essexed-up Focus with a big rear wing, flared arches and no back doors? Are the ‘majority’ of people going to want a car that does 15mpg? Are the ‘majority’ of people going to think, “Yes, I think I will pay a £5-10k premium over the ST for a few extra bhp, a badge and a bodykit”? The answer to all those questions is: no, probably not.

When you put a 300 brake horsepower engine into the front of a family car you are, whether you like it or not, aiming at a very specific audience: the enthusiast. Manufacturers don’t make cars like this to make money – they either do it for motor sport homologation or, the other 999 times out of 1,000, to bath the rest of the range in a warm glow of desirability so they can make more money from the lesser models.
So why not go the whole hog? Capito says, “There’s absolutely no need for four-wheel drive” but I’m afraid that is complete rubbish. Even if he thinks that putting 300bhp through the front wheels of a car is a good idea, or that in engineering terms it’s the most elegant solution, from a desirability point of view (which is what these cars are all about) it makes no sense whatsoever. You only have to look at the success of the Evo and the STi, never mind the fact that a decent Escort Cosworth still sells for £25k, to see that having four-wheel drive adds an exotic element that simply cannot be achieved with only two wheels being driven.

It’s not even a money thing – and that just makes it even more infuriating. The Focus shares its platform with the Volvo C30, which has both the capability to accept a four-wheel drive transmission and a four-wheel drive system that fits it – it would require very little development to put it in a high-power Focus.

I just can’t understand why Ford are taking this approach to the new RS – there is so much potential, both from the point of view of tying the completely irrelevant World Rally Championship into the road car operation and creating another timeless Ford legend.

I had hoped that I was going to missing the Cosworth badge, not everything that the car should have been. Let's hope this is a very ellaborate smoke screen.

The new Focus RS is set to make its debut at the British Motor Show in August.

BOLD DOESN'T SEEM TO WORK PROPERLY... MODS?

Edited by MrKipling43 on Friday 4th January 10:29

Personally, I cant see the point

Edited by jagdpanther on Friday 4th January 10:33

[MrKipling43]

MJK 24 said:

It would probably cost them too much to develop a 4wd car as nothing with that floorpan is 4wd.

Then 4wd makes it much much heavier so it needs more than 300bhp to make it go so they have to start reengineering the engine to a higher standard.

It'd just end up overweight and lacking in sparkle. Much like an R32 in comparison to the lighter but better handling GTi.

It says in that article that the platform is shared with the C30 (which it is) and the C30 is available with four wheel drive, so it would accept that system.

And the Subaru Impreza certainly doesn't lack sparkle.

[jagdpanther]

MrKipling43 said:

MJK 24 said:

It would probably cost them too much to develop a 4wd car as nothing with that floorpan is 4wd.

Then 4wd makes it much much heavier so it needs more than 300bhp to make it go so they have to start reengineering the engine to a higher standard.

It'd just end up overweight and lacking in sparkle. Much like an R32 in comparison to the lighter but better handling GTi.

It says in that article that the platform is shared with the C30 (which it is) and the C30 is available with four wheel drive, so it would accept that system.

And the Subaru Impreza certainly doesn't lack sparkle.

Exactly

They have a rough base to adapt a high powered Focus to take 4WD without too much cost AND can finally take on the big 3:

Impreza, Lancer Evo and the lesser of the three: Mazda MPS

[OwenK]

Does seem a bit of a waste of time. If you want a Ford hot hatch you buy the ST. I don't see why anybody would really go the step up and shell out a significant chunk more for what is basically the same thing again - the cars even look basically the same. (I still have trouble picking New Focus apart from New Fiesta.)

I think the sad thing is that when this car absolutely bombs at retail Ford will look at their poor sales and think "Clearly nobody wants an RS anymore, let's just scrap the idea" rather than "Nobody wants what is basically an ST that just costs more".

[MJK 24]

jagdpanther said:

MrKipling43 said:

MJK 24 said:

It would probably cost them too much to develop a 4wd car as nothing with that floorpan is 4wd.

Then 4wd makes it much much heavier so it needs more than 300bhp to make it go so they have to start reengineering the engine to a higher standard.

It'd just end up overweight and lacking in sparkle. Much like an R32 in comparison to the lighter but better handling GTi.

It says in that article that the platform is shared with the C30 (which it is) and the C30 is available with four wheel drive, so it would accept that system.

And the Subaru Impreza certainly doesn't lack sparkle.

The C30 isn't available in this country with 4wd so maybe there a problem sorting it for RHD.

Exactly

They have a rough base to adapt a high powered Focus to take 4WD without too much cost AND can finally take on the big 3:

Impreza, Lancer Evo and the lesser of the three: Mazda MPS

[Podie]

Why wont these Focus RS threads ing die...?

[MrKipling43]

MJK 24 said:

jagdpanther said:

MrKipling43 said:

MJK 24 said:

It would probably cost them too much to develop a 4wd car as nothing with that floorpan is 4wd.

Then 4wd makes it much much heavier so it needs more than 300bhp to make it go so they have to start reengineering the engine to a higher standard.

It'd just end up overweight and lacking in sparkle. Much like an R32 in comparison to the lighter but better handling GTi.

It says in that article that the platform is shared with the C30 (which it is) and the C30 is available with four wheel drive, so it would accept that system.

And the Subaru Impreza certainly doesn't lack sparkle.

Exactly

They have a rough base to adapt a high powered Focus to take 4WD without too much cost AND can finally take on the big 3:

Impreza, Lancer Evo and the lesser of the three: Mazda MPS

The C30 isn't available in this country with 4wd so maybe there a problem sorting it for RHD.

I guess that's a possibility.

Although I don't know enough about transmission systems to know why it might be a problem... gearbox/steering column location issues?

[MrKipling43]

Podie said:

Why wont these Focus RS threads ing die...?

You know, you don't have to read them...

You could say the same thing about the elevnty trillion 'I hate middle lane hogs'/'turn off your foglights'/'look at this chav mobile' threads.

[jagdpanther]

Podie said:

Why wont these Focus RS threads ing die...?

Because, even thought the Focus ST look like a bit of a chav tool (not a bad car by any means) people are still after over a decade, hankering after a proper Focus Cosworth!

To be fair, even if I had the money to buy one I wouldnt because I would rather spend the same (or less money) on something older and get more for the dosh

MJK 24:

I cant see converting to RHD being that much of a problem to be honest

[Podie]

jagdpanther said:

Podie said:

Why wont these Focus RS threads ing die...?

Because, even thought the Focus ST look like a bit of a chav tool (not a bad car by any means) people are still after over a decade, hankering after a proper Focus Cosworth!

To be fair, even if I had the money to buy one I wouldnt because I would rather spend the same (or less money) on something older and get more for the dosh

I'm bored of posting about this TBH, it seems that people would rather read stuff on forums / magazines from ill-informed journos speculating than anything concrete - not to mention considering the financial position of FMC, which governs the decisions anyway.

Oh, and the Cosworth name will not be seen on a Ford again - it was sold ages ago.

[MrKipling43]

Podie said:

I'm bored of posting about this TBH

Don't then!

It's not like you're contributing much to the discussion...

Podie said:

Oh, and the Cosworth name will not be seen on a Ford again - it was sold ages ago.

And what's wrong with speculation?

And, again, in case you didn't read the article - there are quotes from Jost Capito in there, who is in charge of the performance vehicles division!

[Podie]

MrKipling43 said:

And what's wrong with speculation?

And, again, in case you didn't read the article - there are quotes from Jost Capito in there, who is in charge of the performance vehicles division!

The speculation is the same tired old BS though.

Before we get in with the "did you read the article" some of us know a little more about Ford than others.




ETA - Didn't write the crash article, did you Mr Kipling..?

Edited by Podie on Friday 4th January 11:08

[jagdpanther]

Podie said:

jagdpanther said:

Podie said:

Why wont these Focus RS threads ing die...?

Because, even thought the Focus ST look like a bit of a chav tool (not a bad car by any means) people are still after over a decade, hankering after a proper Focus Cosworth!

To be fair, even if I had the money to buy one I wouldnt because I would rather spend the same (or less money) on something older and get more for the dosh

I'm bored of posting about this TBH, it seems that people would rather read stuff on forums / magazines from ill-informed journos speculating than anything concrete - not to mention considering the financial position of FMC, which governs the decisions anyway.

Oh, and the Cosworth name will not be seen on a Ford again - it was sold ages ago.

Its a boomerang subject Podie old chap

I might start a Classic Escort appreciation thread lets face it, thats where my money would go......if I had any

Edited by jagdpanther on Friday 4th January 11:02

[MrKipling43]

Podie said:

Before we get in with the "did you read the article" some of us know a little more about Ford than others.

Sorry, you've completely lost me...

I promise I'm not trying to start an argument - no trolling here - but I fail to see what relevance 'some of us (presumably you) know more about Ford than 'others' (presumably implying me)' has to do with the fact that the bloke who is in charge of the programme has given quite categoric specifications for the new car, which is what the quoted article is talking about?

[Podie]

MrKipling43 said:

Podie said:

Before we get in with the "did you read the article" some of us know a little more about Ford than others.

Sorry, you've completely lost me...

I promise I'm not trying to start an argument - no trolling here - but I fail to see what relevance 'some of us (presumably you) know more about Ford than 'others' (presumably implying me)' has to do with the fact that the bloke who is in charge of the programme has given quite categoric specifications for the new car, which is what the quoted article is talking about?

The quotes in that article are taken from another magazine, the entire transcript is not there.

Having worked in the industry, the things that are said, and the things that are printed are often VERY different.

I am ex-Ford. I will not breach a NDA.

[Fire99]

well i wont comment on Podie's comments.. i know Podie is fairly well informed on things Ford but im not expecting Podie to quote chapter and verse every time Ford gets mentioned.. so back to idle speculation..

Personally i wouldn't be too keen on a FWD monster. I know technology has moved on in recent years etc but the fact remains that getting 300bhp down through the front wheels when gravity etc etc is trying to make the car lose grip is very difficult.
It usually involves clever use of traction control which ultimately means less power is being put down to the wheels..

For me, regardless of technical data, an RS Focus would only appeal if it was 4WD.. to me a true RS Focus would be a worthy competitor for an EVO or Imprezza.

For me very little more needs to be said than that.

Obviously if a 4WD RS Focus appears il happily eat my words.

[MrKipling43]

Podie said:

The quotes in that article are taken from another magazine, the entire transcript is not there.

No, sure - but it's hard to misquote some things. Also, the tone of the article is really one of "why would they do this? I hope they don't"

Podie said:

Having worked in the industry, the things that are said, and the things that are printed are often VERY different.

Working in the 'other' industry, people being interviewed should think more carefully about what they say in interviews. They also have a propensity to change their minds over what they meant when they see that it comes across differently in print!

Podie said:

I am ex-Ford. I will not breach a NDA.

'Nuff said, of course I wouldn't expect you to do that. I know how it feels to have to keep things secret!

[10 Pence Short]

I think the new taxation rules are having the same effect on 'cheaper' performance cars now as insurance was on hot hatches in the 90s. The new VED rules and company car taxation are making it harder and harder for real volumes of performance cars.

Which makes me wonder why Ford don't just go for a balls out halo model if the volumes aren't going to be there?