Modern cars - too much power?
Discussion
Ok, I am one of those people that agree that you cannot really have too much power, but things are changing to affect my point of view.
For some time now I have been concerned by the fact that you can get increasinly more and more powerful BMW & Merc cars. There is some sort of power race and current development plans for the next generation M5 indicate that it wont stop. We have seen the rise of 300 then 400 and now 500BHP everyday cars.... now we have the dawn of 600BHP in the shape of the Merc CL65. Its got 603BHP and 738Lbs and more performance than you can shake a stick at....
But is this too much? We are talking a lot of money I know, but this is a car that you (with the right bank balance) walk into any Merc dealer and get.... the worse bit comes in 5 - 10 years when this car is a fraction of the cost and accessible to anyone that can afford the insurance....
In this weeks Autocar there is a review of the car and a small column about what happened in Germany on the 14th July 2003:
Ok, so one single incident isnt going to put an end to a development cycle like this. But could we be heading for the US 60's 70's Muscle car scenario here? There was a massive development in power, peaking at over 400BHP for some of the monsters - eventually being effectively outlawed by emmissions to bring down power and the enforced introduction of safety devices like airbags....
Could Europe be heading the same way? A couple more incidents like this could turn public opinion away from the likes of fast cars and accelerate the growth of the anti-car movement.... we have excessive speed cameras at the moment, a couple of high profile cases like this and we might end up with GPS speed limiters if we arent careful.....
Anyway - discuss....
For some time now I have been concerned by the fact that you can get increasinly more and more powerful BMW & Merc cars. There is some sort of power race and current development plans for the next generation M5 indicate that it wont stop. We have seen the rise of 300 then 400 and now 500BHP everyday cars.... now we have the dawn of 600BHP in the shape of the Merc CL65. Its got 603BHP and 738Lbs and more performance than you can shake a stick at....
But is this too much? We are talking a lot of money I know, but this is a car that you (with the right bank balance) walk into any Merc dealer and get.... the worse bit comes in 5 - 10 years when this car is a fraction of the cost and accessible to anyone that can afford the insurance....
In this weeks Autocar there is a review of the car and a small column about what happened in Germany on the 14th July 2003:
autocar said:
Where will Mercedes-Benz's race for horsepower end? Perhaps its over already, halted during the morning of July 14 on the A5 autobaun to Karlsruhe, in Germany. Thats when a Mercedes Cl600 reported travelling at over 120mph, encountered a Kia Sephia driven by a 21 year old mother carrying her two year old daughter. Its not clear whether the two cars touched or whether the Kia's driver became unnerved, but the outcome was the Sephia crashing off the autobaun, and the death of its occupants.
It has taken over a month for Mercedes to admit that the CL was driven by an employee, that it was rigged up for testing, and that it was headed for the Pepenburg test track. The company has also admitted that it does test its cars in real-world conditions on the autobaun - though it certainly isnt alone. But the incident has provoked many column inches in Germany, no least because Merc has taken so long to admit involvement.
Ok, so one single incident isnt going to put an end to a development cycle like this. But could we be heading for the US 60's 70's Muscle car scenario here? There was a massive development in power, peaking at over 400BHP for some of the monsters - eventually being effectively outlawed by emmissions to bring down power and the enforced introduction of safety devices like airbags....
Could Europe be heading the same way? A couple more incidents like this could turn public opinion away from the likes of fast cars and accelerate the growth of the anti-car movement.... we have excessive speed cameras at the moment, a couple of high profile cases like this and we might end up with GPS speed limiters if we arent careful.....
Anyway - discuss....
Surely the fault, if any is to be apportioned here, lies with the drivers level of roadcraft rather than the vehicles ability to accelerate?
I believe that if we start horsepower limiting cars then we are on a slippery slope and the battle to protect our interest has been lost. It is a logical progression from no 600bhp cars to no 100bhp cars as to many a vehicle is nothing more than a means of getting from A to B...
I believe that if we start horsepower limiting cars then we are on a slippery slope and the battle to protect our interest has been lost. It is a logical progression from no 600bhp cars to no 100bhp cars as to many a vehicle is nothing more than a means of getting from A to B...
I have always thought the power hikes are simply marketing ploys to turn on the business-boys - badges of power and success.
With each power increase there also appears to be additional speed-reducing electronic features.
Afterall what is the point of 600BHP when your electronic aides cut in and prevent that max power ever being used.
With each power increase there also appears to be additional speed-reducing electronic features.
Afterall what is the point of 600BHP when your electronic aides cut in and prevent that max power ever being used.
Good points and well made. Yes I think there is an issue. Ownership of cars like these needs to be based on driver capability not driver wealth. We've debated insurance issues before on this subject. The need for some type of ability testing relevant to car power, like we have for bikes, is becoming necessary.
Im not interested in most of these superpowered heavyweights because they honestly dont sound that fun to drive.
Id rather have something that made me feel like I was going fast. Something lightweight with either a nice revvy engine, or a burbly one. Something that made me WANT to drive. The sort of car that didnt drive itself with its own brain but allowed me to learn its limits. To reach the limits on the millon-pounds-of-torque machines must be incredibly dangerous and probably quite dull if loaded with DCS ATC AYC etc(!).
I would want a car that I could be taught to drive correctly and that became one with the road. Not a car that tried to defend itself against the road.
I imagine that most of the buyers of these machine arent interested in driving anyway. They just want what society and the media tells them is the biggest and the best.
What happens when the safty abbreveations fail on a 700BHP bling machine? I guess thats when it truely does become one with the road.
Id rather have something that made me feel like I was going fast. Something lightweight with either a nice revvy engine, or a burbly one. Something that made me WANT to drive. The sort of car that didnt drive itself with its own brain but allowed me to learn its limits. To reach the limits on the millon-pounds-of-torque machines must be incredibly dangerous and probably quite dull if loaded with DCS ATC AYC etc(!).
I would want a car that I could be taught to drive correctly and that became one with the road. Not a car that tried to defend itself against the road.
I imagine that most of the buyers of these machine arent interested in driving anyway. They just want what society and the media tells them is the biggest and the best.
What happens when the safty abbreveations fail on a 700BHP bling machine? I guess thats when it truely does become one with the road.
plotloss said:
Surely the fault, if any is to be apportioned here, lies with the drivers level of roadcraft rather than the vehicles ability to accelerate?
Totally agree but to add another point regarding the fatality described in the magazine cutting. The driver of the sephia could have been unnerved! Then WTF was she doing on an Autobahn where vehicles often speed at far higher speeds than the 120 mph stated?
I completely see where everyone is coming from here - I agree, its the thin end of the wedge and we risk having one of the last freedoms taken away. But the problem is that in 5/10/15 years time there will be some majorly powerful motors on the roads...
Just think that 20 years ago you had 200BHP Jags and 100BHP Fords - now they are 400BHP Jags and 220BHP Fords. Couple that with the 600BHP Merc and 450BHP 4x4 we have escallating problem here.... just think ram-raiders used to make do with 220BHP RangeRovers, now they have 450BHP Porsche Cayennes....!!!
There used to be a time that something like a Maserati or Ferrari was special - you know 300BHP and a 175MPH top speed... now just about every Merc and BMW does that and it "cheapens" the whole speed thing now.... Dont know about everyone else, but anything less than 200BHP is just unacceptible!!!
...
But I think you get what I mean - the obsession with power (and electronics) is potentially making a rod for our own backs in years to come.... all for Merc trying to create a "halo" effect on their rather dull Merc C180's.... shame really.
Just think that 20 years ago you had 200BHP Jags and 100BHP Fords - now they are 400BHP Jags and 220BHP Fords. Couple that with the 600BHP Merc and 450BHP 4x4 we have escallating problem here.... just think ram-raiders used to make do with 220BHP RangeRovers, now they have 450BHP Porsche Cayennes....!!!
There used to be a time that something like a Maserati or Ferrari was special - you know 300BHP and a 175MPH top speed... now just about every Merc and BMW does that and it "cheapens" the whole speed thing now.... Dont know about everyone else, but anything less than 200BHP is just unacceptible!!!
... But I think you get what I mean - the obsession with power (and electronics) is potentially making a rod for our own backs in years to come.... all for Merc trying to create a "halo" effect on their rather dull Merc C180's.... shame really.
Also think about the crash worthyness of the Kia. I believe it is not very good.
It is an unfortunate incident, where we don't (and probably won't) know the full details.
As for the power hikes, I think it is getting a little unreal. Even at the lower end of the market, you can get an 18K 'hot hatch' with 210 horses. Not so many years ago, that was the preserve of expensive sports cars.
As to saloons having 600 hp, the Lotus Carlton was berated for having an 'unbelievable' 375hp (think that's right).
I will get slated for this, but what the hell. I think any vehicle with a given power (performance?) should require extra training, be it manufacturer provided or IAM/RideDrive etc. This should also need reviewing every few years.
Sparks
It is an unfortunate incident, where we don't (and probably won't) know the full details.
As for the power hikes, I think it is getting a little unreal. Even at the lower end of the market, you can get an 18K 'hot hatch' with 210 horses. Not so many years ago, that was the preserve of expensive sports cars.
As to saloons having 600 hp, the Lotus Carlton was berated for having an 'unbelievable' 375hp (think that's right).
I will get slated for this, but what the hell. I think any vehicle with a given power (performance?) should require extra training, be it manufacturer provided or IAM/RideDrive etc. This should also need reviewing every few years.
Sparks
Personally, I think BMW has taken the lead by reversing the trend of counteracting the ever increasing weights of high end cars with an even steeper increase in hp count, with the M3 CSL.
My observations in a nutshell:
* Car manufacturers have agreed to a 140 g/km average CO2 emissions level for their products by 2008
* Until now, the steep development curve of direct injection diesel engines and the widespread use of ever more sophisticated engine management controls have allowed the manufacturers to cater for their customer's desire for more creature comforts and better crash protection (both contributing to a chain of weight-increasing engineering measures, and bigger engines needed to give the desired performance) and still cope with tighter emissions legislations.
* This is likely to be coming to an end - direct petrol injection might net another 5% reduction in specific fuel consumption, as do third and fourth generation common rail diesel injection, but that will unlikely be enough to reach above 140 g/km goal given current consumer preferences (SUV's, 1,400 kg compact hatrchbacks with every bell and whistle, 2,000 kg, 600 hp 'sports cars').
* Where mass manufacturers could just about squeeze their customers in ecofriendly shopping carts given enough persuasion, premium manufacturers certainly can't. If they tried, they would certainly lose a lrage part of their customer base, who buy these makes to distinguish themselves from Johnny Average, and just the badge doesn't do it anymore.
* Partly because of the SUV craze, luxury vehicles have gained more weight over the past decade than 'economy class' cars. In terms of occupant safety, this creates compatibility problems that in the long term safety/consumer organizations will want to look into and urge their governments that action ve taken. The public outrage on events like the one mentioned here will no doubt speed up this process.
* Then there is a group of, partly very profitable, car manufacturers whose brand values to a more or lesser extent center on a 'sporting' heritage/image. Even though a large proportion of their customers is not by any means an advanced driver, buys into the image more than anything else and wants/needs all the bells and whistles on their car, as soon as the manufacturer throws the objective of distinguished drving dynamics out the window, the 'core' customer, to a large extent driven by magazine reviews and a high profile at the motorsport front (or lack thereof) will turn away and the brand image will fade, eventually losing its attraction to the larger group of 'image conscious' buyers.
* On the other side, traffic congestion and the 'war against' speeding in all Western countries mean the oppotrunities to drive fast on public roads will be close to extinct within the next years. It is fairly likely that both car 'enthusiasts' and car manufacturers that want to sell their high-profit models to them, will turn to track days etc. for exploiting the potential of their verhicles.
* The current generation of German 'super' sporting cars (AMG Merceds, Audi S/RS, M5, etc) and their direct competitors from other makes are optimized for travelling at excessively high speeds on derestricted Autobahns with all creature comforts on board. A car weigihng close to two tonnes and with 500+ hp will do little for you on the track, both in terms of driver enjoyment/entertainment (the main aim on track days) and lap times, as impressively demonstrated by The Stig every two weeks on BBC2 during the season...
My educated guess is that cars will have to get lighter in general, and that manufacturers of cars aimed at the 'sporting driver' will need to turn their attention to improving vehicle dynamics by reducing weight rather than adding ever more power.
My observations in a nutshell:
* Car manufacturers have agreed to a 140 g/km average CO2 emissions level for their products by 2008
* Until now, the steep development curve of direct injection diesel engines and the widespread use of ever more sophisticated engine management controls have allowed the manufacturers to cater for their customer's desire for more creature comforts and better crash protection (both contributing to a chain of weight-increasing engineering measures, and bigger engines needed to give the desired performance) and still cope with tighter emissions legislations.
* This is likely to be coming to an end - direct petrol injection might net another 5% reduction in specific fuel consumption, as do third and fourth generation common rail diesel injection, but that will unlikely be enough to reach above 140 g/km goal given current consumer preferences (SUV's, 1,400 kg compact hatrchbacks with every bell and whistle, 2,000 kg, 600 hp 'sports cars').
* Where mass manufacturers could just about squeeze their customers in ecofriendly shopping carts given enough persuasion, premium manufacturers certainly can't. If they tried, they would certainly lose a lrage part of their customer base, who buy these makes to distinguish themselves from Johnny Average, and just the badge doesn't do it anymore.
* Partly because of the SUV craze, luxury vehicles have gained more weight over the past decade than 'economy class' cars. In terms of occupant safety, this creates compatibility problems that in the long term safety/consumer organizations will want to look into and urge their governments that action ve taken. The public outrage on events like the one mentioned here will no doubt speed up this process.
* Then there is a group of, partly very profitable, car manufacturers whose brand values to a more or lesser extent center on a 'sporting' heritage/image. Even though a large proportion of their customers is not by any means an advanced driver, buys into the image more than anything else and wants/needs all the bells and whistles on their car, as soon as the manufacturer throws the objective of distinguished drving dynamics out the window, the 'core' customer, to a large extent driven by magazine reviews and a high profile at the motorsport front (or lack thereof) will turn away and the brand image will fade, eventually losing its attraction to the larger group of 'image conscious' buyers.
* On the other side, traffic congestion and the 'war against' speeding in all Western countries mean the oppotrunities to drive fast on public roads will be close to extinct within the next years. It is fairly likely that both car 'enthusiasts' and car manufacturers that want to sell their high-profit models to them, will turn to track days etc. for exploiting the potential of their verhicles.
* The current generation of German 'super' sporting cars (AMG Merceds, Audi S/RS, M5, etc) and their direct competitors from other makes are optimized for travelling at excessively high speeds on derestricted Autobahns with all creature comforts on board. A car weigihng close to two tonnes and with 500+ hp will do little for you on the track, both in terms of driver enjoyment/entertainment (the main aim on track days) and lap times, as impressively demonstrated by The Stig every two weeks on BBC2 during the season...
My educated guess is that cars will have to get lighter in general, and that manufacturers of cars aimed at the 'sporting driver' will need to turn their attention to improving vehicle dynamics by reducing weight rather than adding ever more power.
Sparks said:
As to saloons having 600 hp, the Lotus Carlton was berated for having an 'unbelievable' 375hp (think that's right).
Yep, completely right - the Carlton was pilloried (SP?) in the press and by the police for having "so much power it was irrelivant". But then again it was much lighter and almost as accelerative as the current crop of cars - a recent Evo group test showed that its not far off the pace today.... but critically the M5 and E55 are faster, though only by a little.
So why no press outrage this time? Seems strange...
I understand the comments about the German Panzerwagens being setup for high speed cruising, but even that is being less and less. Unrestricted autobauns are getting fewer and fewer and its only a matter of time before they are gone altogether - consigned to history.... then why would you need a car RESTRICTED to 155 when you cant even do that....
Personally agree with previous comment, lighter and nimbler cars are the way forward - focus on the dynamics and have the car fun to drive in all circumstances rather than just have something that can thunder to 100 in 10 seconds.... you dont actually have that much chance to blast around at 100 anyway, its better to have a car thats fun at 0-50 - where most of your driving is done anyway....
A more relavant point than these uber-wagons for the very rich is the fact that modern mundane repmobiles now often come with over 200bhp. I'm thinking cars along the lines of Vectra 2.5V6s (although they're not 200bhp) BMW 3 series and so on. Volvo T5s.
In just a few short years these cars reach a fraction of their original value...and the hands of ordinary drivers.
Have you noticed that driving in town now requires more determination, better judgement and no hesitation whatsoever to get anywhere because more and more cars now accelerate away at roundabouts and junctions with smaller margins - because they can.
Its becoming a war of escalation. Performance is marketing. Then performance is on the road. Then you need performance just to be able to pull out. And so performance becomes marketing once again.
Also modern cars have so much grip that the average driver has never had experience of losing it. So when it happens the consequences are worse as it all happens faster.
How I see it is that cars are getting better and better, faster, more grippy, nimbler, safer and more comfortable.
And the drivers? They're as bad as they ever were. If not worse.
In just a few short years these cars reach a fraction of their original value...and the hands of ordinary drivers.
Have you noticed that driving in town now requires more determination, better judgement and no hesitation whatsoever to get anywhere because more and more cars now accelerate away at roundabouts and junctions with smaller margins - because they can.
Its becoming a war of escalation. Performance is marketing. Then performance is on the road. Then you need performance just to be able to pull out. And so performance becomes marketing once again.
Also modern cars have so much grip that the average driver has never had experience of losing it. So when it happens the consequences are worse as it all happens faster.
How I see it is that cars are getting better and better, faster, more grippy, nimbler, safer and more comfortable.
And the drivers? They're as bad as they ever were. If not worse.
The bizarre thing is (nearly) all these ultra-powerful saloons are bought by old blokes who drive them slowly.
There's a chauffeur driven S55 AMG at the office next door - what's that all about? Why not get the S500 with the much better ride if you're chauffered anyway? Or the S320 diesel come to that.
There's a chauffeur driven S55 AMG at the office next door - what's that all about? Why not get the S500 with the much better ride if you're chauffered anyway? Or the S320 diesel come to that.
pbrettle said:
Ok, I am one of those people that agree that you cannot really have too much power, but things are changing to affect my point of view.
For some time now I have been concerned by the fact that you can get increasinly more and more powerful BMW & Merc cars. There is some sort of power race and current development plans for the next generation M5 indicate that it wont stop. We have seen the rise of 300 then 400 and now 500BHP everyday cars.... now we have the dawn of 600BHP in the shape of the Merc CL65. Its got 603BHP and 738Lbs and more performance than you can shake a stick at....
But is this too much? We are talking a lot of money I know, but this is a car that you (with the right bank balance) walk into any Merc dealer and get.... the worse bit comes in 5 - 10 years when this car is a fraction of the cost and accessible to anyone that can afford the insurance....
In this weeks Autocar there is a review of the car and a small column about what happened in Germany on the 14th July 2003:
autocar said:
Where will Mercedes-Benz's race for horsepower end? Perhaps its over already, halted during the morning of July 14 on the A5 autobaun to Karlsruhe, in Germany. Thats when a Mercedes Cl600 reported travelling at over 120mph, encountered a Kia Sephia driven by a 21 year old mother carrying her two year old daughter. Its not clear whether the two cars touched or whether the Kia's driver became unnerved, but the outcome was the Sephia crashing off the autobaun, and the death of its occupants.
It has taken over a month for Mercedes to admit that the CL was driven by an employee, that it was rigged up for testing, and that it was headed for the Pepenburg test track. The company has also admitted that it does test its cars in real-world conditions on the autobaun - though it certainly isnt alone. But the incident has provoked many column inches in Germany, no least because Merc has taken so long to admit involvement.
Ok, so one single incident isnt going to put an end to a development cycle like this. But could we be heading for the US 60's 70's Muscle car scenario here? There was a massive development in power, peaking at over 400BHP for some of the monsters - eventually being effectively outlawed by emmissions to bring down power and the enforced introduction of safety devices like airbags....
Could Europe be heading the same way? A couple more incidents like this could turn public opinion away from the likes of fast cars and accelerate the growth of the anti-car movement.... we have excessive speed cameras at the moment, a couple of high profile cases like this and we might end up with GPS speed limiters if we arent careful.....
Anyway - discuss....
Im not sure what that article has to do with power? He was driving at 120mph - my old Toyota will happily cruise at that! If he was on a section of derestricted autobahn then presumably he wasnt even breaking the law. His crash was nothing to do with the power of the car, it has everything to do with his use of that power and whether it was safe for the surroundings. He may also have been driving like an idiot - and that also has nothing to do with power. The article doesnt actually mention whose fault the accident was. the article says the Kia driver may have been spooked? Did that cause them to veer into the path of the Merc?
pbrettle said:
A particularily perculiar thing to the UK I think. For example, they sell 3 times as many diesel S classes in Europe as they do petrol ones... but in the UK its the other way round....
Not sure I can agree with the the above comment. The last conversation I had with my local merc dealer was that half the S'class saloons currently sold in the UK are the diesel versions. This is due to company car taxation rules.
DAZ
It's just not clear that "speed killed" in this instance. It may well be that the driver of the KIA was being inattentive and just pulled out in front of the Mercedes without assessing properly its approach speed. The Mercedes driver may have had little chance to avoid hitting the KIA if it pulled out without looking properly.
"Mirror, signal, manoeuvre" is as applicable now as it's always been.
Similar is the pedestrian who doesn't look or listen properly when crossing the road. Years ago, school children were taught to look three times (to the left, to the right and to the left again) and listen before crossing. Now it seems that the hysterical nannys would prefer to blame the cardriver in all cases. What's wrong with "look out for yourself"?
Do we hear people calling for slow cars to be banned, given that a great many accidents occur at around 30mph?
The need to drive defensively and to be attentive should be what it's all about. If you can't judge approach speed then keep away from the road.
"Mirror, signal, manoeuvre" is as applicable now as it's always been.
Similar is the pedestrian who doesn't look or listen properly when crossing the road. Years ago, school children were taught to look three times (to the left, to the right and to the left again) and listen before crossing. Now it seems that the hysterical nannys would prefer to blame the cardriver in all cases. What's wrong with "look out for yourself"?
Do we hear people calling for slow cars to be banned, given that a great many accidents occur at around 30mph?
The need to drive defensively and to be attentive should be what it's all about. If you can't judge approach speed then keep away from the road.
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