CH4 last night, Mercedes vs Bentley
Discussion
Did anyone see this..? I don't know if it was CH4 or S4C because our tv just decides to switch between the two without telling us (
).
But it was really good!
Watched the first half, video'd the rest to watch tonight, but it started with history of motorcar, then post WW1 models and centred around how W.O. started up the Bentley motor company, then how one of their customers decided to enter the 24 Heures du Mans in 1924 (i think). W.O. didn't even know about it and was convinced that no car could last that long.
At the last minute however, he offers a factory co-driver and hot foots it himself to see the race. The Bentley came fourth and so started Bentleys long run at Le Mans.
I went out then, so have the rest to watch, but it was absolutely fantastic seeing vintage footage of Le Mans and seeing these beautiful old Bentleys screaming around banked circuits (had soundbites too!
)
SO anyone else see it, or was it just me??
>>> Edited by Buffalo on Tuesday 4th November 09:25
). But it was really good!
Watched the first half, video'd the rest to watch tonight, but it started with history of motorcar, then post WW1 models and centred around how W.O. started up the Bentley motor company, then how one of their customers decided to enter the 24 Heures du Mans in 1924 (i think). W.O. didn't even know about it and was convinced that no car could last that long. At the last minute however, he offers a factory co-driver and hot foots it himself to see the race. The Bentley came fourth and so started Bentleys long run at Le Mans.
I went out then, so have the rest to watch, but it was absolutely fantastic seeing vintage footage of Le Mans and seeing these beautiful old Bentleys screaming around banked circuits (had soundbites too!
) SO anyone else see it, or was it just me??
>>> Edited by Buffalo on Tuesday 4th November 09:25
I thought it was very poor. The whole raison d'etre of the programme was a supposed rivalry between Bentley and Mercedes. In fact, such a rivalry, if it ever existed, was extremely tenuous. This was quite obvious from the content of the programme but not from the style of the commentary. If anything, Bentley's main opposition in the 1920s was from French companies like Delage and Talbot. By the time Mercedes arrived on trhe scene, Bentley were virtually finished. The real rivalries of the 1930s were on the Grand Prix tracks where Mercedes Benz, Auto Union and, for an initial period anyway, Alfa Romeo slugged it out.
Interviewing Mark Blundell was pointless, as his comments on Le Mans were totally irrelevant to the period covered by the programme. I don't think the experience of driving in the 1980s and 90s at Le Mans provides much insight into what it was like to drive there in the 20s and 30s.
The interviews with Bill Boddy were unusual in that he doesn't often make TV asppearances. It will be interesting to read his views on the final version of the programme in his regular column in "Motor Sport".
Finally, why did they need to pitch the programme the way they did? There are lots of interesting motor racing rivalries from the 1930s that could have been the basis of a truthful documentary on the period. Perhaps the fact that none of the cars would have been British might have been the reason.
>> Edited by eric mc on Tuesday 4th November 09:48
Interviewing Mark Blundell was pointless, as his comments on Le Mans were totally irrelevant to the period covered by the programme. I don't think the experience of driving in the 1980s and 90s at Le Mans provides much insight into what it was like to drive there in the 20s and 30s.
The interviews with Bill Boddy were unusual in that he doesn't often make TV asppearances. It will be interesting to read his views on the final version of the programme in his regular column in "Motor Sport".
Finally, why did they need to pitch the programme the way they did? There are lots of interesting motor racing rivalries from the 1930s that could have been the basis of a truthful documentary on the period. Perhaps the fact that none of the cars would have been British might have been the reason.
>> Edited by eric mc on Tuesday 4th November 09:48
I'll be critical if I think something desrves it.
Another "myth" perpetuated in the programme was the old one of Mercedes stripping the paint off their W25 GP car to get it under the weight limits. That is almost definitely not true. The cars turned up at the venue unpainted. Later they were painted, in silver paint. No weight saving there.
My suggestion is, if you want good quality and informative historic motor sport documentaries, subscribe to the "Motor Films Quarterly" DVDs and videos. These are compiled by noted historian Doug Nye and film collector David Wegeulin. The footage is digitally restored and original foreign language sound tracks have been retained, suitably subtitled if necessary.
Another "myth" perpetuated in the programme was the old one of Mercedes stripping the paint off their W25 GP car to get it under the weight limits. That is almost definitely not true. The cars turned up at the venue unpainted. Later they were painted, in silver paint. No weight saving there.
My suggestion is, if you want good quality and informative historic motor sport documentaries, subscribe to the "Motor Films Quarterly" DVDs and videos. These are compiled by noted historian Doug Nye and film collector David Wegeulin. The footage is digitally restored and original foreign language sound tracks have been retained, suitably subtitled if necessary.
eric mc said:
I'll be critical if I think something desrves it.
Another "myth" perpetuated in the programme was the old one of Mercedes stripping the paint off their W25 GP car to get it under the weight limits. That is almost definitely not true. The cars turned up at the venue unpainted. Later they were painted, in silver paint. No weight saving there.
The W25's were overweight so not painted, the W125 and W154 weren't so they could paint them silver to match their winning W25's. I think a historian for Mercedes Benz would probably know what the correct story is.
VIII ADAC EIFELRENNEN
NÜRBURGRING (D), 3 JUNE 1934
Mercedes made its debut proper in the Eifel GP at the Nürburgring. Mercedes-Benz only entered two cars as Caracciola was not yet fit enough to race on this demanding track. The leading Maserati drivers were also absent.
The Mercedes cars had of course not been weighed at the AVUS formula libre race. Everything seemed to be OK during the weighing in the Eifelrennen until the Ferrari team protested that tyres, water and oil could be removed before the weighing but brake fluid was none of these and therefore had to be added to the car. With brake fluid the cars weighed 751 kg. There was panic in the Mercedes team before someone came upon a solution. During the night the mechanics removed the white paint and in the morning the cars, now natural aluminium colored, passed the weight limit. From that day on the Mercedes race cars have always been silver coloured instead of white.
As always Enzo Ferrari got his way, he was running Alfa Romeo's btw.
eric mc said:
I thought it was very poor. The whole raison d'etre of the programme was a supposed rivalry between Bentley and Mercedes. In fact, such a rivalry, if it ever existed, was extremely tenuous. This was quite obvious from the content of the programme but not from the style of the commentary.
Hmm interesting... Like i say, not seen all of it - intend to watch the rest tonight, but i was wondering where the rivalry bit would come into it, bearing in mind i had watched half the programme without them even mentioning Mercedes!
Still i think the footage they were showing was great, especially because i wouldn't necessarily think of watching an "enthusiasts" video with that sort of stuff on it.
Great to see the old guys/cars in action, and the night time footage!
Chuff me, how on earth did they walk with balls that big??? I don`t think it was as bad as ericmc makes out. This was a populist tv programme - it did sensationalise the odd aspect and ignored some others but broadly represented a very real and genuine rivalry betweent he two firms in the late twenties. The stuff before this and the thirties merc` stuff was just contextualising the events.
Bentley and Mercedes primarily competed in Sportscar events in the twenties. Delage and Talbot competed in Grand Prix - there were stop/start challenges from the likes of Stutz and Bugatti but even Alfa weren`t direct rivals so the basic premise of the programme is quite right.
Good to see Boddy on TV and the Blundell contribution didn`t bother me that much - a 24 hour race is a 24 hour race after all.
Keep meaning to subscribe to Motor Films Quaterly but haven`t got round to it yet....
Bentley and Mercedes primarily competed in Sportscar events in the twenties. Delage and Talbot competed in Grand Prix - there were stop/start challenges from the likes of Stutz and Bugatti but even Alfa weren`t direct rivals so the basic premise of the programme is quite right.
Good to see Boddy on TV and the Blundell contribution didn`t bother me that much - a 24 hour race is a 24 hour race after all.
Keep meaning to subscribe to Motor Films Quaterly but haven`t got round to it yet....
I'm not comvinced. There was a debate on this topic over on The Nostalgia Forum of Atlas F1 a while ago. It might be worthwhile doing a search on that site to see what the outcome was.
As for the Mercedes "historian" - he trotted out a story about a driver being critical of Mercedes' braking efficiency and being told that the cars were "made to go, not stop". I have heard this story many times before, only it was always in relation to drivers being critical of Bugatti brakes, not Mercedes!
Motor racing is full of myths, legends, apocryphal stories, corporate disinformation etc etc. I take a lot of what I read and hear, especially from "official" sources, with a comensurate grain of sodium chloride.
I didn't "dislike" the programme, just thought that it let itself down too many times. I certainly enjoyed the earlier one about the Harmsworth Trophy speedboat races - although my enjoyment of that was probably enhamced by my lack of knowledge of the subject matter, thereby being unaware of any factual errors.
>> Edited by eric mc on Tuesday 4th November 11:25
As for the Mercedes "historian" - he trotted out a story about a driver being critical of Mercedes' braking efficiency and being told that the cars were "made to go, not stop". I have heard this story many times before, only it was always in relation to drivers being critical of Bugatti brakes, not Mercedes!
Motor racing is full of myths, legends, apocryphal stories, corporate disinformation etc etc. I take a lot of what I read and hear, especially from "official" sources, with a comensurate grain of sodium chloride.
I didn't "dislike" the programme, just thought that it let itself down too many times. I certainly enjoyed the earlier one about the Harmsworth Trophy speedboat races - although my enjoyment of that was probably enhamced by my lack of knowledge of the subject matter, thereby being unaware of any factual errors.
>> Edited by eric mc on Tuesday 4th November 11:25
I think incorrigible is right here - it was better than the `enders. Anything that promotes this type of subject matter on mainstream TV is a good thing in my book even if it`s "not quite right".
The footage was excellent and if you took a dispassionate historical view you could argue that Bentley didn`t really have any competition at Le Mans during the period - Lorraine Dietrich and Stutz came and went and the SSK (in carraciola`s hands)was the only car with proper "form".
Arguably a better subject would have been the GP rivalry between the two fascist states in the mid to late thirties.
I also thought the Harnsworth Cup was the best one in the series so far (again mainly down to ignorance of the subject matter) but have high hopes for the LSR one next week...
The footage was excellent and if you took a dispassionate historical view you could argue that Bentley didn`t really have any competition at Le Mans during the period - Lorraine Dietrich and Stutz came and went and the SSK (in carraciola`s hands)was the only car with proper "form".
Arguably a better subject would have been the GP rivalry between the two fascist states in the mid to late thirties.
I also thought the Harnsworth Cup was the best one in the series so far (again mainly down to ignorance of the subject matter) but have high hopes for the LSR one next week...
Yep, I am looking forward to it but I am fairly knowledgeable of LSR matters so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will be OK. Let's hope they deign to include some of the non British/American record attempts.
It has been done before, noteably by the BBC (before they became addicted to DIY and gardening)in around 1976/77 with Raymond Baxter and 1997 with Tiff Needell.
It has been done before, noteably by the BBC (before they became addicted to DIY and gardening)in around 1976/77 with Raymond Baxter and 1997 with Tiff Needell.
I watched it! Fasinating.
Sorry not got time to read the whole thread but did anyone notice the refuelling method for the Bentleys at LM?
There was more fuel pouring out over the bodywork then was going in the tank! HSE didnt exist back then guess!
Shame the banked circuit at Brooklands has been destroyed. It doesnt look quite right with a super market in the middle.
Sorry not got time to read the whole thread but did anyone notice the refuelling method for the Bentleys at LM?
There was more fuel pouring out over the bodywork then was going in the tank! HSE didnt exist back then guess!
Shame the banked circuit at Brooklands has been destroyed. It doesnt look quite right with a super market in the middle.
FourWheelDrift said:
I'll be critical if I think something desrves it.
Another "myth" perpetuated in the programme was the old one of Mercedes stripping the paint off their W25 GP car to get it under the weight limits. That is almost definitely not true. The cars turned up at the venue unpainted. Later they were painted, in silver paint. No weight saving there.
The W25's were overweight so not painted, the W125 and W154 weren't so they could paint them silver to match their winning W25's. I think a historian for Mercedes Benz would probably know what the correct story is.
VIII ADAC EIFELRENNEN
NÜRBURGRING (D), 3 JUNE 1934
Mercedes made its debut proper in the Eifel GP at the Nürburgring. Mercedes-Benz only entered two cars as Caracciola was not yet fit enough to race on this demanding track. The leading Maserati drivers were also absent.
The Mercedes cars had of course not been weighed at the AVUS formula libre race. Everything seemed to be OK during the weighing in the Eifelrennen until the Ferrari team protested that tyres, water and oil could be removed before the weighing but brake fluid was none of these and therefore had to be added to the car. With brake fluid the cars weighed 751 kg. There was panic in the Mercedes team before someone came upon a solution. During the night the mechanics removed the white paint and in the morning the cars, now natural aluminium colored, passed the weight limit. From that day on the Mercedes race cars have always been silver coloured instead of white.
As always Enzo Ferrari got his way, he was running Alfa Romeo's btw.
Last month I was in the Mercedes museum in Sturrgart. They said the same story, and had an unapinted (and unrestored) W25. they also had Carracciola's (sp??) W125. And a W154. And...
I've had a look at the discussion on TNF at Atlas F1 and the general concensus is that the "removal of white paint" story came out in the late 1950s when the former Mercedes team manager, Neubaur, wrote his autobiography. Now, Neubaur was famous for embellishing his tales and it was not unknown for him to make up a story if the fiction was more interesting than the fact. What IS interesting is that there is no mention whatsoever in 1930s newspaper or magazine articles of the W25s turning up in white paint and then being stripped. In fact, a W25 ran a few weeks earlier at AVUS in bare metal AND it seems that Auto Union launched their GP car slightly earlier already in a silver scheme.
The more likely reason why the cars appeared in metal or silver finishes is that someone in the Nazi hierarchy, maybe even Hitler himself, isssued an order to the teams to have the cars finished in silver as they looked better. No other reason. Appearance and image was just as important to the Nazis as success on the track. This is, of course, something the Mercedes company of today would not be too keen to boast about.
I'm not surprised the "official" line is the "heavy paint story" - it's less politically sensitive.
>> Edited by eric mc on Tuesday 4th November 12:59
The more likely reason why the cars appeared in metal or silver finishes is that someone in the Nazi hierarchy, maybe even Hitler himself, isssued an order to the teams to have the cars finished in silver as they looked better. No other reason. Appearance and image was just as important to the Nazis as success on the track. This is, of course, something the Mercedes company of today would not be too keen to boast about.
I'm not surprised the "official" line is the "heavy paint story" - it's less politically sensitive.
>> Edited by eric mc on Tuesday 4th November 12:59
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