Are ultra light power steering systems dangerous?
Discussion
I have had cars with and without power steering, and will take it or leave it; it's never been a particular selling point.
However the only setups I have ever possessed have been traditional hydraulic systems, without any form of electronic control.
For work I spent a week driving around in a brand new Vauxhall Corsa, gutless engine aside it was the steering that worried me. I assume it's an electric system as it's totally different to that in my Volvo.
There was no feeling at all. I turned the wheel, which offered no resistance whatsoever, the car reacted in a way that was vaugely proportional to the input. It was like driving an arcade machine. To hold any kind of line through a corner I had to constantly correct as the wheel gave so little feedback one had to guess what the front tyres were doing.
Now, this is bad but it's not my point. My point is the steering seemed to rely on sensor inputs from the steering wheel to apply power assistance. Now these sensor inputs seemed a bit coarse, and therefore dangerous. The truble I found was with bumps, torque steer (yes this Corsa had torque steer), and braking. Anything that upset the position of the front wheels would jog the steering wheel. This would "activate" the power steering, and cause it to apply force in the way that the wheel was bumped. The system was set up to be so over assisted that it would begin to steer the wheels in the direction they had been knocked.
I tried to experiment with this and found that with a light grip, just resting a finger on the wheel, the car would steer itself quite dramatically if going over a bump or under braking. The thing began snaking from side to side after hitting a pothole at speed.
I ended up constantly rotating the wheel like a cartoon character in an effort to make the thing go in a straight line. This doesn't seem right to me, for the sake of a little less effort to get into a parking space. An elderly driver might well hace the wheel wrenched from their grasp.
However the only setups I have ever possessed have been traditional hydraulic systems, without any form of electronic control.
For work I spent a week driving around in a brand new Vauxhall Corsa, gutless engine aside it was the steering that worried me. I assume it's an electric system as it's totally different to that in my Volvo.
There was no feeling at all. I turned the wheel, which offered no resistance whatsoever, the car reacted in a way that was vaugely proportional to the input. It was like driving an arcade machine. To hold any kind of line through a corner I had to constantly correct as the wheel gave so little feedback one had to guess what the front tyres were doing.
Now, this is bad but it's not my point. My point is the steering seemed to rely on sensor inputs from the steering wheel to apply power assistance. Now these sensor inputs seemed a bit coarse, and therefore dangerous. The truble I found was with bumps, torque steer (yes this Corsa had torque steer), and braking. Anything that upset the position of the front wheels would jog the steering wheel. This would "activate" the power steering, and cause it to apply force in the way that the wheel was bumped. The system was set up to be so over assisted that it would begin to steer the wheels in the direction they had been knocked.
I tried to experiment with this and found that with a light grip, just resting a finger on the wheel, the car would steer itself quite dramatically if going over a bump or under braking. The thing began snaking from side to side after hitting a pothole at speed.
I ended up constantly rotating the wheel like a cartoon character in an effort to make the thing go in a straight line. This doesn't seem right to me, for the sake of a little less effort to get into a parking space. An elderly driver might well hace the wheel wrenched from their grasp.
Most people never push cars close enough to the limits of their grip for steering feel to make the slightest bit of difference to anything. Even on here, a huge number of people don't seem to understand what steering feel actually means - they equate it with steering weight. A heavy steering system can have no feel and a light system can have lots.
It sounds like the car you drove might have been broken, though. The power steering should, if anything, naturally apply force in the opposite direction to the way the wheels get jolted. It certainly shouldn't cause it to snake though, just to auto-centre.
It sounds like the car you drove might have been broken, though. The power steering should, if anything, naturally apply force in the opposite direction to the way the wheels get jolted. It certainly shouldn't cause it to snake though, just to auto-centre.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 9th July 10:54
I once drove a Daihatsu Sportrak with the most ridiculously over sensitive power steering ever.
The very first corner I came to was a 90 deg left (industrial estate type thing) I applied a certain amount of lock and promptly drove it straight onto (all 4 wheels) and over the pavement bouncing all over the place.
Took some time to get to grips with it after that and although I still over steered it for a while at least I kept to the tarmac.
The very first corner I came to was a 90 deg left (industrial estate type thing) I applied a certain amount of lock and promptly drove it straight onto (all 4 wheels) and over the pavement bouncing all over the place.
Took some time to get to grips with it after that and although I still over steered it for a while at least I kept to the tarmac.
The tyres may have been overinflated? Or the system knackered?
As above, I had a Punto MK2 for a while. The steering was alright but had a City mode which would make it ultra light for parking etc. I never actually used it though as it was more effort to turn it on than just park the bloody car. The steering wasn't heavy anyway!
As above, I had a Punto MK2 for a while. The steering was alright but had a City mode which would make it ultra light for parking etc. I never actually used it though as it was more effort to turn it on than just park the bloody car. The steering wasn't heavy anyway!
I think a lot of new cars with electric rather than pump assisted steering also have electronic stability control systems to prevent accidents. I know American cars from the 70's often had steering with some play before the steering input actually moved the wheels, this was called the 'sneeze factor'.
I'm not a great fan of power steering myself, sure its great when parking but actually driving I don't like it.
I hopped back into my BMW after having not driven it for 3 weeks and driving the CRX every day. First corner was a case of 'woah hang on a moment what exactly are the wheels doing?!'.
It is however a lot easier to paralell park than the CRX especially when the R888s are up to tempreture and try and turn the earth rather than the car...
I hopped back into my BMW after having not driven it for 3 weeks and driving the CRX every day. First corner was a case of 'woah hang on a moment what exactly are the wheels doing?!'.
It is however a lot easier to paralell park than the CRX especially when the R888s are up to tempreture and try and turn the earth rather than the car...
kambites said:
Most people never push cars close enough to the limits of their grip for steering feel to make the slightest bit of difference to anything. Even on here, a huge number of people don't seem to understand what steering feel actually means - they equate it with steering weight. A heavy steering system can have no feel and a light system can have lots.
I agree with this, and I think it's a generational thing. I prefer a lighter system, probably because I've grown up with power assisted cars, whereas older drivers seem to prefer a weighty one, probably because they've grown up with un-assisted cars. I would go as far as to say I think that a heavy system, even a feelsome one, dulls the delicate feedback you can achieve with a light one.Having said that, in contrast with my opinion on electronic throttles (which I think is tarnished by a small proportion of old or cheap systems combined with a lot of over-opinionated bandwagon guff), I think Electric Steering is a technology that's not ready yet.
There's plenty of good cost, efficiency and packaging reasons to have it, but I've yet to experience a system where I've driven the car and not thought 'This is rubbish', to the point where I think most average drivers would comment on it feeling peculiar if they took a corner with any gusto. Perhaps you could compare it to the electronic throttles on 90's BMW's that were discussed. I'm sure one day someone will get it right, and all of a sudden it will stop getting criticised in the same way that hydraulic systems have, for the most part, stopped being seen as inferior to an unassisted setup, but for now, it's crap.
Menguin said:
I can understand different steering weight/feel but I don't think that really light power steering can be considered dangerous. I mean, DrTre - you couldn't even keep the car on the road? Seriously?
Genuinely, I was 18 and not very experienced but even so, stepping into a vehicle and not actually having the remotest idea of where the wheels are pointing and how quickly it responds to even the slightest wheel movement was a real eye opener.You could (and I did) turn the wheel with one finger at any speed.
It's an extreme example, I'm sure.
Edited by DrTre on Thursday 9th July 12:03
Strawman said:
I know American cars from the 70's often had steering with some play before the steering input actually moved the wheels, this was called the 'sneeze factor'.
Well, I never knew that.Am wondering if the steering play in my 1960 Landrover could be described as 'man flu factor'
The Wookie said:
kambites said:
Most people never push cars close enough to the limits of their grip for steering feel to make the slightest bit of difference to anything. Even on here, a huge number of people don't seem to understand what steering feel actually means - they equate it with steering weight. A heavy steering system can have no feel and a light system can have lots.
I agree with this, and I think it's a generational thing. I prefer a lighter system, probably because I've grown up with power assisted cars, whereas older drivers seem to prefer a weighty one, probably because they've grown up with un-assisted cars. I would go as far as to say I think that a heavy system, even a feelsome one, dulls the delicate feedback you can achieve with a light one.Having said that, in contrast with my opinion on electronic throttles (which I think is tarnished by a small proportion of old or cheap systems combined with a lot of over-opinionated bandwagon guff), I think Electric Steering is a technology that's not ready yet.
There's plenty of good cost, efficiency and packaging reasons to have it, but I've yet to experience a system where I've driven the car and not thought 'This is rubbish', to the point where I think most average drivers would comment on it feeling peculiar if they took a corner with any gusto. Perhaps you could compare it to the electronic throttles on 90's BMW's that were discussed. I'm sure one day someone will get it right, and all of a sudden it will stop getting criticised in the same way that hydraulic systems have, for the most part, stopped being seen as inferior to an unassisted setup, but for now, it's crap.
The problem is that virtually all cars are designed to have power steering these days. The last car I drove without power steering was fine, and as soon as the vehicle was moving you could go lock-to-lock in about 4 inches driving distance anyway without having to force the wheel at all.
I have a 2001 Corsa, and it shouldn't need power steering at all in my opinion, but it has the most stupidly light system I have ever had the misfortune of using. Unpleasant, yes, dangerous... not really.
I have a 2001 Corsa, and it shouldn't need power steering at all in my opinion, but it has the most stupidly light system I have ever had the misfortune of using. Unpleasant, yes, dangerous... not really.
Futuramic said:
I have had cars with and without power steering, and will take it or leave it; it's never been a particular selling point.
However the only setups I have ever possessed have been traditional hydraulic systems, without any form of electronic control.
For work I spent a week driving around in a brand new Vauxhall Corsa, gutless engine aside it was the steering that worried me. I assume it's an electric system as it's totally different to that in my Volvo.
There was no feeling at all. I turned the wheel, which offered no resistance whatsoever, the car reacted in a way that was vaugely proportional to the input. It was like driving an arcade machine. To hold any kind of line through a corner I had to constantly correct as the wheel gave so little feedback one had to guess what the front tyres were doing.
Now, this is bad but it's not my point. My point is the steering seemed to rely on sensor inputs from the steering wheel to apply power assistance. Now these sensor inputs seemed a bit coarse, and therefore dangerous. The truble I found was with bumps, torque steer (yes this Corsa had torque steer), and braking. Anything that upset the position of the front wheels would jog the steering wheel. This would "activate" the power steering, and cause it to apply force in the way that the wheel was bumped. The system was set up to be so over assisted that it would begin to steer the wheels in the direction they had been knocked.
I tried to experiment with this and found that with a light grip, just resting a finger on the wheel, the car would steer itself quite dramatically if going over a bump or under braking. The thing began snaking from side to side after hitting a pothole at speed.
I ended up constantly rotating the wheel like a cartoon character in an effort to make the thing go in a straight line. This doesn't seem right to me, for the sake of a little less effort to get into a parking space. An elderly driver might well hace the wheel wrenched from their grasp.
Its sounds more like its broken in some way rather than there being a fundemental problem with electronic power steering. All the "electric" part of the steering system is a pump that gets the fluid up to pressure, it doesn't turn the wheel in any way.However the only setups I have ever possessed have been traditional hydraulic systems, without any form of electronic control.
For work I spent a week driving around in a brand new Vauxhall Corsa, gutless engine aside it was the steering that worried me. I assume it's an electric system as it's totally different to that in my Volvo.
There was no feeling at all. I turned the wheel, which offered no resistance whatsoever, the car reacted in a way that was vaugely proportional to the input. It was like driving an arcade machine. To hold any kind of line through a corner I had to constantly correct as the wheel gave so little feedback one had to guess what the front tyres were doing.
Now, this is bad but it's not my point. My point is the steering seemed to rely on sensor inputs from the steering wheel to apply power assistance. Now these sensor inputs seemed a bit coarse, and therefore dangerous. The truble I found was with bumps, torque steer (yes this Corsa had torque steer), and braking. Anything that upset the position of the front wheels would jog the steering wheel. This would "activate" the power steering, and cause it to apply force in the way that the wheel was bumped. The system was set up to be so over assisted that it would begin to steer the wheels in the direction they had been knocked.
I tried to experiment with this and found that with a light grip, just resting a finger on the wheel, the car would steer itself quite dramatically if going over a bump or under braking. The thing began snaking from side to side after hitting a pothole at speed.
I ended up constantly rotating the wheel like a cartoon character in an effort to make the thing go in a straight line. This doesn't seem right to me, for the sake of a little less effort to get into a parking space. An elderly driver might well hace the wheel wrenched from their grasp.
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