Hybrid / Electric cars of the future - tuning potential?
Discussion
We all know that there is a huge market for tuning and aftermarket modifications to petrol/diesel cars but there is also a rather large problem of oil shortages looming over the next 50 years or so. By the time that happens, petrol and diesel prices will have gone through the roof and pushed everyone into electric or hybrid alternatives.
So what will happen to the tuners? I guess that tuning an electric motor to produce more power is a rather unknown quantity?
These cars also rely heavily on a silky smooth aero package so bolting on big spoilers etc. wont be an option for many either.
So what does the future hold for tuners?
So what will happen to the tuners? I guess that tuning an electric motor to produce more power is a rather unknown quantity?
These cars also rely heavily on a silky smooth aero package so bolting on big spoilers etc. wont be an option for many either.
So what does the future hold for tuners?
I'd have thought there would be a market for remapping...
If you're producing a battery powered electric vehicle then there would be lots of talk about economy and running costs; and of course battery range. The manufacturer wouldn't want their latest electric car needing a recharge after say 100 miles, so are going to do their best to make the battery last as long as possible with acceptable (slow) performance.
Now, a little remap later and the torque delivery could be altered to make the electric car accelerate quicker, feel more responsive, all manner of excitement in fact... Clearly this would be at the cost of battery life/range and probably shorten the life of a few components (which soulds like the start of a familiar diesel remapping discussion!)
Retrofitting powerful electric motors and high capacity battery sets into older vehicles could be another 'tuning' avenue as well.
If you're producing a battery powered electric vehicle then there would be lots of talk about economy and running costs; and of course battery range. The manufacturer wouldn't want their latest electric car needing a recharge after say 100 miles, so are going to do their best to make the battery last as long as possible with acceptable (slow) performance.
Now, a little remap later and the torque delivery could be altered to make the electric car accelerate quicker, feel more responsive, all manner of excitement in fact... Clearly this would be at the cost of battery life/range and probably shorten the life of a few components (which soulds like the start of a familiar diesel remapping discussion!)
Retrofitting powerful electric motors and high capacity battery sets into older vehicles could be another 'tuning' avenue as well.
I most cases you need to make the batteries bigger to give more oopmh.
Battery sizing in hybrids tends to be to give a sensilble discharge rate for the desired motor grunt. With NiMH it was 15C some like Honda are pushing 20C now, hence smaller lower voltage battery packs with the same motor output.
Discharge rates.
A 5Ah battery for example 10C would be 10xcapacity or 50A. Multiply that by the voltage to give you the power output you can supply a motor. So you either add battery cells to make the capacity bigger or in series to make the voltage higher.
This is why lithium is a nice to have for hybrids and non essential. More power density so you can push the motor more or take up less cabin space. Energy density doesn't really feature when you can't charge off the grid.
Manual control of hybrid function is a good one though, ie assist on demand and regen, many commuter routes could also be manual optimised better than the onboard computer. Ie a big hill followed by a long downhill you may aswell use as much assist as possible with little fuel burn as you can charge it back up after the hill climb.
Battery sizing in hybrids tends to be to give a sensilble discharge rate for the desired motor grunt. With NiMH it was 15C some like Honda are pushing 20C now, hence smaller lower voltage battery packs with the same motor output.
Discharge rates.
A 5Ah battery for example 10C would be 10xcapacity or 50A. Multiply that by the voltage to give you the power output you can supply a motor. So you either add battery cells to make the capacity bigger or in series to make the voltage higher.
This is why lithium is a nice to have for hybrids and non essential. More power density so you can push the motor more or take up less cabin space. Energy density doesn't really feature when you can't charge off the grid.
Manual control of hybrid function is a good one though, ie assist on demand and regen, many commuter routes could also be manual optimised better than the onboard computer. Ie a big hill followed by a long downhill you may aswell use as much assist as possible with little fuel burn as you can charge it back up after the hill climb.
Edited by JonnyVTEC on Monday 12th April 19:19
Yeah Ive seen that one.
It runs a Lithium Iron Phosphate LifeBatt pack, more capacity so he runs the stage with alot of assist available, although still stock output at the present for 10kW but consistantly that, the stock Honda system only gives full assist for 7 seconds, with not much extra weight and mounted lower than the stock pack it definitley helps a rally car.
Peter Perkins on here helped him develop and install that.
It runs a Lithium Iron Phosphate LifeBatt pack, more capacity so he runs the stage with alot of assist available, although still stock output at the present for 10kW but consistantly that, the stock Honda system only gives full assist for 7 seconds, with not much extra weight and mounted lower than the stock pack it definitley helps a rally car.
Peter Perkins on here helped him develop and install that.
The tuning potential is there as jonny says with bigger better batteries and tweaking of the electronics. The IC side of a hybrid is the same as any other car as far as tweaking goes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M-TwIa-gUs
The great thing about electric motors is they will generally stand huge overloads for short periods. So a DC motor rated at 10kw for 1hr may well be able to take 50 or even 100kw for correspondingly shorter periods assuming the drive electronics and battery can deliver the power reqd!
Me and a couple of others are still working on tweaking an insight Mk1 power output by driving the motor with higher current. It may also be possible to swap the motor for one from the more modern Honda civic IMA giving an easy extra 5kw. More electric power the same as an IC costs time and exponential amounts of money!
I suppose it wont be long before we see the tweaked innards from a Tesla in a rally car of some sort with a large service van containing a big generator and solar panels on the roof.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M-TwIa-gUs
The great thing about electric motors is they will generally stand huge overloads for short periods. So a DC motor rated at 10kw for 1hr may well be able to take 50 or even 100kw for correspondingly shorter periods assuming the drive electronics and battery can deliver the power reqd!
Me and a couple of others are still working on tweaking an insight Mk1 power output by driving the motor with higher current. It may also be possible to swap the motor for one from the more modern Honda civic IMA giving an easy extra 5kw. More electric power the same as an IC costs time and exponential amounts of money!
I suppose it wont be long before we see the tweaked innards from a Tesla in a rally car of some sort with a large service van containing a big generator and solar panels on the roof.
Edited by peterperkins on Tuesday 13th April 07:21
Robb F said:
I'm already bored of all this talk of batteries and voltages. I do fear for the future of the petrol car 
But dont you think we should at least consider the possibilities for the future? The oil is going to start running out in the next 50 years and once we're reached "peak oil" it will get very expensive indeed.The reluctance to consider hybrid or electric power is very similar to that which was around at the advent of the internal combustion engine. People in their horse and carriage would look at a petrol car and no doubt come out with similar comments to yours.
Fair enough, that was some time ago, but it wasnt long after the advent of the petrol engined car that people started to produce more exciting versions.
Personally, I'm starting to see electric/hybrid power as the way forward. It has to be and it wont' always be as dull as a Prius.
JonnyVTEC said:
I most cases you need to make the batteries bigger to give more oopmh.
Battery sizing in hybrids tends to be to give a sensilble discharge rate for the desired motor grunt. With NiMH it was 15C some like Honda are pushing 20C now, hence smaller lower voltage battery packs with the same motor output.
Discharge rates.
A 5Ah battery for example 10C would be 10xcapacity or 50A. Multiply that by the voltage to give you the power output you can supply a motor. So you either add battery cells to make the capacity bigger or in series to make the voltage higher.
This is why lithium is a nice to have for hybrids and non essential. More power density so you can push the motor more or take up less cabin space. Energy density doesn't really feature when you can't charge off the grid.
Manual control of hybrid function is a good one though, ie assist on demand and regen, many commuter routes could also be manual optimised better than the onboard computer. Ie a big hill followed by a long downhill you may aswell use as much assist as possible with little fuel burn as you can charge it back up after the hill climb.
Listen to that man.Battery sizing in hybrids tends to be to give a sensilble discharge rate for the desired motor grunt. With NiMH it was 15C some like Honda are pushing 20C now, hence smaller lower voltage battery packs with the same motor output.
Discharge rates.
A 5Ah battery for example 10C would be 10xcapacity or 50A. Multiply that by the voltage to give you the power output you can supply a motor. So you either add battery cells to make the capacity bigger or in series to make the voltage higher.
This is why lithium is a nice to have for hybrids and non essential. More power density so you can push the motor more or take up less cabin space. Energy density doesn't really feature when you can't charge off the grid.
Manual control of hybrid function is a good one though, ie assist on demand and regen, many commuter routes could also be manual optimised better than the onboard computer. Ie a big hill followed by a long downhill you may aswell use as much assist as possible with little fuel burn as you can charge it back up after the hill climb.
Edited by JonnyVTEC on Monday 12th April 19:19
The batteries are the limitation really, but in terms of motor tweaking I think there's plenty of scope, and lots of companies setting themselves into a pecking order of technology at the moment. Plenty of smaller cottage type firms that could conceivably end up with more 'niche' motor designs that aren't feasible for mass production because of compromises on thermal behaviour or cost or life.
A bit like your old R/C car, swap out the unlabelled standard unit for the big black one with gold stickers all over it.
Alternatively it could be stuff like uprated power electronics, different motor windings, supplementary capacitors, that kind of stuff. It's difficult at the moment, but the knowledge is spread thin and applied to a large number of unique or very low volume vehicles. If there's enough of one model to create a focus for development, then a business case for tuning it will appear, and EV tuning will take off.
I had a 400h for the weekend. The thing was obviously madly heavy but after a whole weekend tearing up the tarmac, understeering around every roundabout and general crazyness, it was showing average consumption as 33mpg. The 400h has very respectable acceleration when that leccy motor kicks in btw. The consumption seems like some weird kind of black magic. And, the Lexus dealer provided it with a full tank and told me to bring it back empty, I highly recommend pretending to be a prospective buyer at your local dealership and needing a weekend loan in order to test the car's 'family practicality over a longer period' 
hewlett said:
I had a 400h for the weekend. The thing was obviously madly heavy but after a whole weekend tearing up the tarmac, understeering around every roundabout and general crazyness, it was showing average consumption as 33mpg. The 400h has very respectable acceleration when that leccy motor kicks in btw. The consumption seems like some weird kind of black magic. And, the Lexus dealer provided it with a full tank and told me to bring it back empty, I highly recommend pretending to be a prospective buyer at your local dealership and needing a weekend loan in order to test the car's 'family practicality over a longer period'
Could you come over to my organization and give me a few days free consultancy on the basis that I'll lie to you about an upcoming large contract?That'd be splendid.
Justayellowbadge said:
hewlett said:
I had a 400h for the weekend. The thing was obviously madly heavy but after a whole weekend tearing up the tarmac, understeering around every roundabout and general crazyness, it was showing average consumption as 33mpg. The 400h has very respectable acceleration when that leccy motor kicks in btw. The consumption seems like some weird kind of black magic. And, the Lexus dealer provided it with a full tank and told me to bring it back empty, I highly recommend pretending to be a prospective buyer at your local dealership and needing a weekend loan in order to test the car's 'family practicality over a longer period'
Could you come over to my organization and give me a few days free consultancy on the basis that I'll lie to you about an upcoming large contract?That'd be splendid.
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