define a kit car
Discussion
Having been the owner of classic cars, a Chesil Speedster (with busa engine
)and now a Noble, I'm wondering what is the definition of a 'kit car'? When I was in my late teens, kit cars in general were a bit naff. They were badly made, ugly bodyshells you bolted onto the chassis of a Sierra. They had a bad name and I find people use the term now in a derogatory manor towards certain cars.
My Speedster was an excellent bit of kit and performed as I expected it to. Like a 69 Beetle, which is what it was, but that was why it was a good replica. I've had people tell me the Noble is a kit car. Why? Low volume production, plastic shell, other manufacturers donor parts? But Lee Nobles own chassis.
In the comments r.e the Venom GT, someone stated 'kit car' as if to suggest it was a pile. Well its a pile I'd like, so is the Ultima. What about the various '7' style kits? They're great fun.
So where are we now with kit cars? How can you define one these days?
)and now a Noble, I'm wondering what is the definition of a 'kit car'? When I was in my late teens, kit cars in general were a bit naff. They were badly made, ugly bodyshells you bolted onto the chassis of a Sierra. They had a bad name and I find people use the term now in a derogatory manor towards certain cars.My Speedster was an excellent bit of kit and performed as I expected it to. Like a 69 Beetle, which is what it was, but that was why it was a good replica. I've had people tell me the Noble is a kit car. Why? Low volume production, plastic shell, other manufacturers donor parts? But Lee Nobles own chassis.
In the comments r.e the Venom GT, someone stated 'kit car' as if to suggest it was a pile. Well its a pile I'd like, so is the Ultima. What about the various '7' style kits? They're great fun.
So where are we now with kit cars? How can you define one these days?
Any car available as a kit off the shelf to build yourself. Noble / Elise / TVR - not a kit car. Caterham / Ultima - kit car. Though a lot of the more expensive kit car owners will claim that they're not kit cars as they still see a stigma attached to the label. Factory assembled kit cars, if you're getting into symantics, could be classed as production cars. Though who really cares? Same goes for the Q plate, lots of people don't like that either as it marks it as a kit car. *shrugs* it's just a number plate... A lot of the more snobby ones go one stage further and describe their cars as 'home build' not kit cars. There are some very odd people out there.
Edited by juansolo on Saturday 17th April 09:42
A kit car built by the factory is still a kit car! I would describe a vehicle as kit-car like if it had a tube frame chassis (rather than a monocoque), the drivetrain was assembled from parts normally found in other vehicles rather than produced by the vehicle manufacturer, and the bodywork was fibreglass or similar.
So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
aww999 said:
A kit car built by the factory is still a kit car! I would describe a vehicle as kit-car like if it had a tube frame chassis (rather than a monocoque), the drivetrain was assembled from parts normally found in other vehicles rather than produced by the vehicle manufacturer, and the bodywork was fibreglass or similar.
So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
Why are you excluding anything other than a tube chassis? There are other methods of construction, and there are also monocoque kit cars (as in my profile) and I know of at least one scratch built where the designer had built his own monocoque from steel.So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
Early TVRs were all kits, although a kit can be assembled at the factory. The rwd Lotus Elan was also available as a kit of parts.
Can you get it as a kit of parts? - it's a kit car.
Have you made the chassis/monocoque yourself - it's also a kit car.
If you've taken a non-kit car and replaced many of the parts - it's a re-built or modified car.
aww999 said:
A kit car built by the factory is still a kit car! I would describe a vehicle as kit-car like if it had a tube frame chassis (rather than a monocoque), the drivetrain was assembled from parts normally found in other vehicles rather than produced by the vehicle manufacturer, and the bodywork was fibreglass or similar.
So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
Why not the Elise, by your definition? OK, so it's not a steel spaceframe (neither are cars like the GTM, Quantum Extreme, Pelland Sports, etc. but few people would try to argue that they are production cars), but it's a separate chassis with fibreglass bodywork and someone else's drivetrain and componentry.So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
I think you probably need at least three categories:
- Kit/Component cars: assembled, IVA tested (in the UK) and registered by private individuals.
- Low volume production cars (factory assembled 'kits' and stuff like TVR's), which are supplied fully assembled and registered by their manufacturers, but which use LVTA or IVA to avoid the full type approval process.
- Full production cars (which would include the Elise), which conform fully to type approval legislation for the market in which they are supplied.
Sam_68 said:
aww999 said:
A kit car built by the factory is still a kit car! I would describe a vehicle as kit-car like if it had a tube frame chassis (rather than a monocoque), the drivetrain was assembled from parts normally found in other vehicles rather than produced by the vehicle manufacturer, and the bodywork was fibreglass or similar.
So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
Why not the Elise, by your definition? OK, so it's not a steel spaceframe (neither are cars like the GTM, Quantum Extreme, Pelland Sports, etc. but few people would try to argue that they are production cars), but it's a separate chassis with fibreglass bodywork and someone else's drivetrain and componentry.So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
I think you probably need at least three categories:
- Kit/Component cars: assembled, IVA tested (in the UK) and registered by private individuals.
- Low volume production cars (factory assembled 'kits' and stuff like TVR's), which are supplied fully assembled and registered by their manufacturers, but which use LVTA or IVA to avoid the full type approval process.
- Full production cars (which would include the Elise), which conform fully to type approval legislation for the market in which they are supplied.
I would class a kit car as a non full Type Approval car, then again would LVTA cars be kit cars? Hmmmm!!!
Weren't early Lotus Elans and Elites etc. simply done as kits to reduce taxes? You could have a factory built one but it would cost you a lot more.
I'd say there was, as the name of the old mag suggests, a difference between 'kit cars' and 'car conversions'.
Straightforward body-swaps based on old separate-chassis stuff like Beetles and Heralds were car conversions, surely.
Something you have to put together like a giant functional Airfix is a kit car.
Nothing to be sniffed at either. Britain has the world's best kit industry, most of our manufacturers are kit-based, some of their cars are brilliant on the track too, and they keep older designs alive after mainstream manufacturers have killed them off. The kit industry, for example, can build you a brand new 'proper' Mini, or any Jaguar sports car.
Straightforward body-swaps based on old separate-chassis stuff like Beetles and Heralds were car conversions, surely.
Something you have to put together like a giant functional Airfix is a kit car.
Nothing to be sniffed at either. Britain has the world's best kit industry, most of our manufacturers are kit-based, some of their cars are brilliant on the track too, and they keep older designs alive after mainstream manufacturers have killed them off. The kit industry, for example, can build you a brand new 'proper' Mini, or any Jaguar sports car.
Simple, if you have the option of building it yourself, its a kit car. If you don't its not.
If its borrowing components from other manufacturers, then Aston Martin must be a kit car because the sat nav system comes from Volvo and it has some Ford switchgear. Buying in components from other sources doesn't make it a kit car. Low volume car makers simply can't afford to commission their own bespoke or custom branded versions of everything, so have to buy more components in. Doesn't make them kit cars.
If its borrowing components from other manufacturers, then Aston Martin must be a kit car because the sat nav system comes from Volvo and it has some Ford switchgear. Buying in components from other sources doesn't make it a kit car. Low volume car makers simply can't afford to commission their own bespoke or custom branded versions of everything, so have to buy more components in. Doesn't make them kit cars.
I grew up as well in the 80's, thinking kit car=dog s
te done on a budget. And, for the most part, that was true.
Then about '97 or so, I was given a passenger ride in something called a Dax Kamala (spelling?)
It didn't look all that awesome, but deary me, did it move!
I've been a fan ever since, and stuff like the GTM Libra is beautiful IMHO.
te done on a budget. And, for the most part, that was true.Then about '97 or so, I was given a passenger ride in something called a Dax Kamala (spelling?)
It didn't look all that awesome, but deary me, did it move!
I've been a fan ever since, and stuff like the GTM Libra is beautiful IMHO.
My post above wasn't meant to be rude about kit cars, I have one and it's awesome! The original post was talking about people who use the words kit car as an insult to describe a car that they don't like. I was trying to describe why they are often wrong to do so.
I can see their point though, when there is a string of "supercars" that have tube frame chassis, LSX engines, unstressed carbon fibre/GRP bodywork (eg a car that could be made in a shed by a sufficiently talented bloke with the right tools!) and yet they are priced higher than the latest Ferrari/McLaren offerings which are stuffed full of engineering genius and trick materials.
I can see their point though, when there is a string of "supercars" that have tube frame chassis, LSX engines, unstressed carbon fibre/GRP bodywork (eg a car that could be made in a shed by a sufficiently talented bloke with the right tools!) and yet they are priced higher than the latest Ferrari/McLaren offerings which are stuffed full of engineering genius and trick materials.
Lordbenny said:
Easy one that...was it supplied in 'kit' form and built at home? If it was it's a kit car. If it's a car that can be bought in kit form but has been assembled in a factory (Caterham, westfield, Ultima etc etc) then its a production car.
Its still a kit car, even if the person who designed it built it for you. Although the IVA test is ever so slightly different if you build it as a company than as a private individual (i think)dugt said:
Lordbenny said:
Easy one that...was it supplied in 'kit' form and built at home? If it was it's a kit car. If it's a car that can be bought in kit form but has been assembled in a factory (Caterham, westfield, Ultima etc etc) then its a production car.
Its still a kit car, even if the person who designed it built it for you. Although the IVA test is ever so slightly different if you build it as a company than as a private individual (i think)Lordbenny said:
Easy one that...was it supplied in 'kit' form and built at home? If it was it's a kit car. If it's a car that can be bought in kit form but has been assembled in a factory (Caterham, westfield, Ultima etc etc) then its a production car.
Most kit cars can be bought pre built from the factory though...aww999 said:
A kit car built by the factory is still a kit car! I would describe a vehicle as kit-car like if it had a tube frame chassis (rather than a monocoque), the drivetrain was assembled from parts normally found in other vehicles rather than produced by the vehicle manufacturer, and the bodywork was fibreglass or similar.
So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
That's a bit vague. Both the Corvette and Fiero use plastic or fibreglass body shells on a spaceframe style chassis.So some of the early TVR's were distinctly similar to a kit car, whereas the Elise with its bonded chassis definitely isn't.
As for other parts, well isn't the current MINI running a PSA engine and BMW derived suspension? So made up of parts from other cars and car makers.
Lordbenny said:
dugt said:
Lordbenny said:
Easy one that...was it supplied in 'kit' form and built at home? If it was it's a kit car. If it's a car that can be bought in kit form but has been assembled in a factory (Caterham, westfield, Ultima etc etc) then its a production car.
Its still a kit car, even if the person who designed it built it for you. Although the IVA test is ever so slightly different if you build it as a company than as a private individual (i think)And there are many manufactures who will be putting there cars through IVA.
In the nicest possible way this is a rather silly question. A kit car is one intended to be built at home, end of. It doesn't matter if it's the humblest old school Robin Hood or the latest and greatest Ultima.
The range of options within the kit world is even broader than that of production cars. You have everything from amphibious off roaders to genuine supercars. Some are still deeply flawed, many are a lot better than most non kit owners would expect (at least in specific areas) and a handful are utterly sublime.
The range of options within the kit world is even broader than that of production cars. You have everything from amphibious off roaders to genuine supercars. Some are still deeply flawed, many are a lot better than most non kit owners would expect (at least in specific areas) and a handful are utterly sublime.
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