Would you drive a Q/Sleeper car even if it looked a bin ?

[J4CKO]

I cant be bothered with chasing registration letters, I dont drive that much as I dont need to but I fancy changing my current Saab for something a bit quicker but totally nondescript and a bit sheddy looking, so despite wife type dissaproval I have been looking at going for a MK2 Golf with a 20 valve engine and other mods, most are converted GTI's and are generally tidy and original or modded with differing degrees of success.

Thing is, people expect a GTI to be quick, perhaps not 280 bhp's worth of Superlight R troubling quick (as per Youtube)but still fairly brisk, I feel like just getting a solid but basic MK2 GL or similar and doing the conversion to that just for added amusement, leave it looking as standard as possible, a bit uncared for, just someones old banger but with a 250/300 bhp TT engine, suspension, brakes and everything modified to a sensible level, perhaps a limited slip diff.

Am I a bit weird wanting a vehicle that costs perhaps six or seven grand yet looks about £200 worth ?

How important is it to you to create an impression, is the "deep cover sleeper" route even more needy than the rebadged "M3" basic 318i ?

[Rawwr]

Find a Rover 620Ti with magnificent flaking and/or fading paintwork. They're still quite nippy

[J4CKO]

Rawwr said:

Find a Rover 620Ti with magnificent flaking and/or fading paintwork. They're still quite nippy

I have had a few Rovers in the past, not getting another as they did tend to be fairly disastrous, the 620 is quick-ish but still only 200 bhp in a fairly large car, I want to maximise the gulf between actual performance and what it looks like, a Doom Blue bog spec Golf CL on steelies, discrete exhaust, lowered so it benefits handling not the usual arse scraping zero travel route.

And the other benefit is that the donor cars tend to be cheaper and there is a better chance of finding that elusive unabused well looked after one.

Three door as though not exactly the stiffest shell they are still a lot better than the 5 door which has the structural integrity of a wet hanky in my experience.

Edited by J4CKO on Monday 26th April 12:37

[ex vtskid]

I wouldn't say its weird, can easily see why you'd wouldn't want to attract attention. Not sure that would work with the GL as you'd need pretty wide tyres to make that work and I'm not sure they'd fit a standard one?

[Rawwr]

J4CKO said:

Rawwr said:

Find a Rover 620Ti with magnificent flaking and/or fading paintwork. They're still quite nippy

I have had a few Rovers in the past, not getting another as they did tend to be fairly disastrous, the 620 is quick-ish but still only 200 bhp in a fairly large car, I want to maximise the gulf between actual performance and what it looks like, a Doom Blue bog spec Golf CL on steelies, discrete exhaust, lowered so it benefits handling not the usual arse scraping zero travel route.

Appreciate that, I just think with the Rover it's the difference of what people expect it to do and what it actually does. If I see a Rover 600 on the road, I typically expect it to be driven by a dithering pensioner on the verge of a colostomy explosion. When I see a Golf on the road, I expect it to be driven by an anus. That, for me, is why the 620Ti seems quite Q

[J4CKO]

ex vtskid said:

I wouldn't say its weird, can easily see why you'd wouldn't want to attract attention. Not sure that would work with the GL as you'd need pretty wide tyres to make that work and I'm not sure they'd fit a standard one?

They are all the same shell, the GTI didnt have any wider arches, just the plastic extensions that didnt actually make it any wider, just a styling afectation, you dont need massive tyres ona car that size, again that was for looks rather than performance, there was a lot of rock hard, tramlining hatches on 17's and 18's for looks, for performance 14's or 15's are the way to go with a decent tyre width of 205/215 or therabouts, remember, these are light cars plus you can have too much grip, Golf's do a three wheel act on 185's. Wheel wise it would be a case of raiding the parts bin for appropriate steelies that will take a wider tyre.

[J4CKO]

Rawwr said:

J4CKO said:

Rawwr said:

Find a Rover 620Ti with magnificent flaking and/or fading paintwork. They're still quite nippy

I have had a few Rovers in the past, not getting another as they did tend to be fairly disastrous, the 620 is quick-ish but still only 200 bhp in a fairly large car, I want to maximise the gulf between actual performance and what it looks like, a Doom Blue bog spec Golf CL on steelies, discrete exhaust, lowered so it benefits handling not the usual arse scraping zero travel route.

Appreciate that, I just think with the Rover it's the difference of what people expect it to do and what it actually does. If I see a Rover 600 on the road, I typically expect it to be driven by a dithering pensioner on the verge of a colostomy explosion. When I see a Golf on the road, I expect it to be driven by an anus. That, for me, is why the 620Ti seems quite Q

Anus, lol, I tend to find its the newer ones that have Anus tendencies, well, sort of 02 plated TD's with a remap kind of thing.

[aka_kerrly]

I know exactly where you are coming from and i love cars that can combine the classic looks with modern technology and show new cars a thing or two. Im not interested in having a newer car than my neighbours or having a Korean car that is 20years newer yet worth the same as my mk2.

In your example the mk2 golf 20vt is a common conversion these days and is definately a lot easier to do if you are starting with a GTI as you have a headstart on the fuel set up and better brakes and running gear to start with. One option is to find a written off 20vt power car and transfer as much as possible. I take it you have seen Bertelli on here - here has a stock 5door 8v with 20vt power and you would never know. There is a fella on ClubGTI who build a mk2 using 99% of a seat leon cupra including the interior and AC etc so it really is a modern car in a traditional shell.

If i had the time/money id love to build all sorts of old/ new convsersions,
a mk1/2 fiesta with a 2.0 16v Zetec on ITBs,
a E21 BMW with a M3 3.2L lump,
mk2 golf VR6 with a charger,
Audi UR coupe with 2.7Bi turbo swap,
Merc 190 or 300c with SL V8 power


are all just a few crazy ideas ive had/seen/dreamt of.

Dave

[J4CKO]

aka_kerrly said:

I know exactly where you are coming from and i love cars that can combine the classic looks with modern technology and show new cars a thing or two. Im not interested in having a newer car than my neighbours or having a Korean car that is 20years newer yet worth the same as my mk2.

In your example the mk2 golf 20vt is a common conversion these days and is definately a lot easier to do if you are starting with a GTI as you have a headstart on the fuel set up and better brakes and running gear to start with. One option is to find a written off 20vt power car and transfer as much as possible. I take it you have seen Bertelli on here - here has a stock 5door 8v with 20vt power and you would never know. There is a fella on ClubGTI who build a mk2 using 99% of a seat leon cupra including the interior and AC etc so it really is a modern car in a traditional shell.

If i had the time/money id love to build all sorts of old/ new convsersions,
a mk1/2 fiesta with a 2.0 16v Zetec on ITBs,
a E21 BMW with a M3 3.2L lump,
mk2 golf VR6 with a charger,
Audi UR coupe with 2.7Bi turbo swap,
Merc 190 or 300c with SL V8 power


are all just a few crazy ideas ive had/seen/dreamt of.

Dave

Will keep my eye open for Bertelli, interested to know whether the 5 door is the problem I had been assuming or the one I had was just a soggy one ?



Was thinking with regards to the running gear, you change that much the starting point wasnt that relevant, woulf need bigger brakes than a GTI has anyway because they are pretty dinky and not that great as standard, the fuel system would need modification from a carb fed model but its not that bigger deal compared to getting a good shell, as as far as I am aware the GTI didnt have any differences to the normal one in terms of strenthening, pick up points or brackets.

[J4CKO]

Also interested in how much looks and image enter into it versus driving something interesting, exciting, makes me wonder how many people drive something flash that isnt actually that much fun.

[hairyben]

aka_kerrly said:

I know exactly where you are coming from and i love cars that can combine the classic looks with modern technology and show new cars a thing or two. Im not interested in having a newer car than my neighbours or having a Korean car that is 20years newer yet worth the same as my mk2.

In your example the mk2 golf 20vt is a common conversion these days and is definately a lot easier to do if you are starting with a GTI as you have a headstart on the fuel set up and better brakes and running gear to start with. One option is to find a written off 20vt power car and transfer as much as possible. I take it you have seen Bertelli on here - here has a stock 5door 8v with 20vt power and you would never know. There is a fella on ClubGTI who build a mk2 using 99% of a seat leon cupra including the interior and AC etc so it really is a modern car in a traditional shell.

If i had the time/money id love to build all sorts of old/ new convsersions,
a mk1/2 fiesta with a 2.0 16v Zetec on ITBs,
a E21 BMW with a M3 3.2L lump,
mk2 golf VR6 with a charger,
Audi UR coupe with 2.7Bi turbo swap,
Merc 190 or 300c with SL V8 power


are all just a few crazy ideas ive had/seen/dreamt of.

Dave

If I ever have the money, a merc 220 SEB sleeper with either japanese engine/4WD mechanicals or perhaps something like the AMG6.2 will be mine.

Other than that, standard stylewise; a little lower, but wheels would be custom period look (lower profile) with justa few tell-tales like retro paddle shifters...

[aka_kerrly]

There arent any differencs between the mk2 shells only that the 1.3 small block has a different layout and subframe. If you start with a big block ie 1.6> car then you wont have any problems.

What if any mk2s have you driven before? The 239mm non vented discs on non GTIs are crap, as are the 239mm vented on a 8v GTI. I run a 90spec 16v with 256mm discs mk3 callipers 23mm MC, ferodo DS pads and new heavy duty flexi all around and i dont feel the car is underbraked although if i were going for another 50+Hp then id swap to 280 or 288 brakes from a mk3 VR6. The problem is beyond 280mm the bigger the brakes the bigger the wneels need to be so that kind of spoils the sleeper look.

The best donor really is a 90spec onward car as the wiring loom and fusebox is fully compatible with the newer VAG stuff. The pre 89 CE1 electrics are a nightmare and it is easier to rip the whole lot out and start from scratch than it is splicing pre an post 90spec looms together. For your plan you are better off finding a decent 8v GTI, there are plenty more 90spec 5dr 8v than there are other models.

Then once you have the donor you can source the engine, box, loom, ecu, subframe, brakes, suspension from a variety of other VAGs- a 20vt really is one of those jobs where there are numerous ways of doing it, wide track an 5 stud conversions, or 4 stud an narrow track for a more stock look, OEM or aftermarket wiring/ecu - there are many choices you have to make.

Try looking on the QPENG website for a rough idea of the minimum amount of work required to get a 20vt to work.
dave

[HellDiver]

There's a guy over here putting a 2.0TDI in to a Mk2 Golf. Once mapped to 170+ it should be reasonably nippy.

http://www.reallymeansounds.com/forum/rms-members-...

[Fittster]

I've never understood the point of sleepers. Why own an asthetically poor car?

[dugt]

Fittster said:

I've never understood the point of sleepers. Why own an asthetically poor car?

so you dont get people hasseling you, trying to race you, wanting to damage it because there jelous.

[Noble Ox]

Fittster said:

I've never understood the point of sleepers. Why own an asthetically poor car?

for sts and giggles

Too irritate people like yourself

Too not care if u put a dink or two in it

Too embarrass all those posers, who couldn’t drive to save their lives, and spend more time cleaning their cars then actually drive them.

For the satisfaction of smoking someone after looking down at your car.

[JB!]

Fittster said:

I've never understood the point of sleepers. Why own an asthetically poor car?

to suprise all those people in S-line a4 tdi's.

all the "show" and no "go".

oh, and yeah, you want a 90 spec for the fusebox, as above.

Edited by JB! on Monday 26th April 13:40

[braddo]

Fittster said:

I've never understood the point of sleepers. Why own an asthetically poor car?

Sleepers don't have to be aesthetically poor, just standard looking. Take the earlier example of a 220 SEB Merc.

There's the also the puerile appeal of surprising drivers of tarted up cars with the speed of a sleeper.

To the OP, have you considered Volvo 940 turbo estate? Pretty easy to up the power apparently, and just remove the turbo badges!

[ManOpener]

aka_kerrly said:

a E21 BMW with a M3 3.2L lump

That one's a great idea, I've seen an E21 with an S14 2.5 Evo motor before and that looked amazingly brisk. I would love to own a S50B32 motored one- some trick cams and engine management and you'd have well over 350bhp in a relatively small, RWD car with a pretty low kerb weight.

Would require some serious chassis work though.

[JB!]

ManOpener said:

aka_kerrly said:

a E21 BMW with a M3 3.2L lump

That one's a great idea, I've seen an E21 with an S14 2.5 Evo motor before and that looked amazingly brisk. I would love to own a S50B32 motored one- some trick cams and engine management and you'd have well over 350bhp in a relatively small, RWD car with a pretty low kerb weight.

Would require some serious chassis work though.

there is an E30 M3 with a V10 in...

will try an find the build thread if possible.