A question of handling
Discussion
I recently changed the front tyres on my MkV Golf GTi to Pilot Sport 3's with great hopes for the improvement of handling (by which I mean grip/feel/directness/etc), but have been left somewhat disappointed.
I had a full wheel geometry test done at the same time and having not had even tracking done in a while and been running "just legal" Goodyear asymmetrics, hopes for a transformation were high.
My initial thoughts were perhaps that Pilot Sport 3's aren't that great (they do seem to be selling the "green" credentials of them); a month or two earlier I changed the rears from the same Goodyears to Pilot Sport 2's and noticed a big improvement. Has anybody moved from 2's to 3's and been disappointed?
Second thoughts were that the place I had the geometry done was just not that great, I've been reading this evening about Beissbarth alignment, perhaps I should visit a place with this kind of equipment.
However, and this is the meat of the question, the car is now 5 years old, it's done almost 60k miles and I have noticed a drop off in handling in other respects, less direct steering response, vagueness of steering feel around the straight ahead, more roll, the whole car feels less taught than when I bought it on 19k miles.
To keep a car's handling "factory fresh" what is required? How often should you change the rubbers/ball joints? How often should the shock absorbers be changed? (On my last car (Pug 306) I changed the front dampers when told they were leaking at MOT time - I could no believe the transformation to the car, so much more direct steering and taught handling).
Has anybody any thoughts/experience on how I can re-invigorate the handling on the car - it's just not as fun as it once was and doesn't feel as safe/sure when pressing on, I'm having to back off too much round bumpy corners.
[btw, my plans are to keep the car standard, however if anyone has exceptional experience of upgrading their suspension I could be tempted].
Ta,
Adrian.
I had a full wheel geometry test done at the same time and having not had even tracking done in a while and been running "just legal" Goodyear asymmetrics, hopes for a transformation were high.
My initial thoughts were perhaps that Pilot Sport 3's aren't that great (they do seem to be selling the "green" credentials of them); a month or two earlier I changed the rears from the same Goodyears to Pilot Sport 2's and noticed a big improvement. Has anybody moved from 2's to 3's and been disappointed?
Second thoughts were that the place I had the geometry done was just not that great, I've been reading this evening about Beissbarth alignment, perhaps I should visit a place with this kind of equipment.
However, and this is the meat of the question, the car is now 5 years old, it's done almost 60k miles and I have noticed a drop off in handling in other respects, less direct steering response, vagueness of steering feel around the straight ahead, more roll, the whole car feels less taught than when I bought it on 19k miles.
To keep a car's handling "factory fresh" what is required? How often should you change the rubbers/ball joints? How often should the shock absorbers be changed? (On my last car (Pug 306) I changed the front dampers when told they were leaking at MOT time - I could no believe the transformation to the car, so much more direct steering and taught handling).
Has anybody any thoughts/experience on how I can re-invigorate the handling on the car - it's just not as fun as it once was and doesn't feel as safe/sure when pressing on, I'm having to back off too much round bumpy corners.
[btw, my plans are to keep the car standard, however if anyone has exceptional experience of upgrading their suspension I could be tempted].
Ta,
Adrian.
Check for cracks/perishing in the bushings around the suspension joints and anti-roll bar drop links. Check for misting of oil on the shock absorber sliders (the shiny metal bits) and check for play in the steering components, however I would imagine that the place that did your tracking would have picked up on a few of these.
I've never used any of the tires you're talking about so cannot pass comment.
A good suspension upgrade would be polybushes, these are harder bushings than the standard rubber ones which flex less. I had them on my old car and it tightened things up nicely but there was a bit more vibration from the road.
I've never used any of the tires you're talking about so cannot pass comment.
A good suspension upgrade would be polybushes, these are harder bushings than the standard rubber ones which flex less. I had them on my old car and it tightened things up nicely but there was a bit more vibration from the road.
I replaced the front wishbone rear bush with a Whiteline Anti Lift Kit after looking at the caster loss the OE bush gave. This gave a lot more grip and traction. Then I fitted a bigger rear anti roll bar. The result is oodles of grip and traction with a very nice chassis balance. I use Michelin PS2. I haven't tried the PS3 yet.........
Have to say that the PS3s are disappointing to look at, but when I had the opportunity to test them against their competitors in a variety of conditions they really were very impressive - more 'fluent', more progressive on the limit, less ragged under braking, better grip on both wet and dry track. The differences were all subtle, but my impression was overall that they needed less correction in any given bend to track a smooth line. Only thing I didn't get a chance to do was a direct comparison PS2/PS3
Edited by joncastle on Tuesday 4th May 06:45
shoestring7 said:
I've have through that 5 years/60k miles was a decent age for a set of dampers to get pensioned off.
Try a set of KW V1s, Bilstein B6 or Koni Sports plus a suspension bush replace. You'll find the deference will amaze you.
SS7
Try a set of KW V1s, Bilstein B6 or Koni Sports plus a suspension bush replace. You'll find the deference will amaze you.
SS7
A sensitive driver will notice a slight deteriation in handling after 30k miles due to worn dampers, but it's highly dependent on the car and the nature of the roads that made up that mileage. I'd change dampers between 60 and 90k miles on any car. A decent garage will inspect bushes etc at this stage too. Personally, I'd always go for original parts rather than aftermarket, but that's another discussion ;-)
RobM77 said:
shoestring7 said:
I've have through that 5 years/60k miles was a decent age for a set of dampers to get pensioned off.
Try a set of KW V1s, Bilstein B6 or Koni Sports plus a suspension bush replace. You'll find the deference will amaze you.
SS7
Try a set of KW V1s, Bilstein B6 or Koni Sports plus a suspension bush replace. You'll find the deference will amaze you.
SS7
A sensitive driver will notice a slight deteriation in handling after 30k miles due to worn dampers, but it's highly dependent on the car and the nature of the roads that made up that mileage. I'd change dampers between 60 and 90k miles on any car. A decent garage will inspect bushes etc at this stage too. Personally, I'd always go for original parts rather than aftermarket, but that's another discussion ;-)
To elaborate from my own experience; I had a set of Koni Sports and a geometry check carried out on a Porsche 968 ClubSport. It was a case of "while you're there", not that I had noticed any problems with the dampers fitted when I bought the car - I thought the ride and handling were excellent.
Driving away from the specialist, the first big difference I noticed was on the motorway; straightline stability was vastly improved, the slight rocking that needed tiny but constant correction had gone. As I expected there was also a improvement in body control on poor surfaces, but I didn't expect to find the ABS cutting in much later under hard braking, as the new dampers kept the wheel/tyre in touch with the road over the bumps.
A second example; a low mileage (28k) but one owner 12 year old Golf mk3 VR6 I bought as a 'winter daily driver'. In superb mechanical condition, but the damping had gone completly awol. Within 100m of driving the car I could tell by the lurch and wallow - the car was all over the place. But the owner had no idea what I was on about; "Well it passed it's MOT last week without any problems at all, and I think it handles just fine". VR6's are not great as standard, but he just hadn't noticed the slow degradation.
Driving home had me the nearest to car-sickness I've ever experienced. I had Bilsteins fitted as soon as I could, and the car was transformed. The wallow and lurch was gone, ride was perfectly acceptable (even compliant by modern standards) but the hidden bonus was the steering; quantifiably more feedback and better response to turn in.
Go get them changed.
SS7
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