Charges for fixing a problem
Discussion
Hypothetically can a garage...
- Get your car in to fix a reported problem
- Return it "fixed" and charge you for the work
- You then find that the problem isnt fixed
- Return the car to the garage who then investigate further, find a larger fault than the one they "fixed"
- Attempt to charge you more to fix the fault?
Cheers
- Get your car in to fix a reported problem
- Return it "fixed" and charge you for the work
- You then find that the problem isnt fixed
- Return the car to the garage who then investigate further, find a larger fault than the one they "fixed"
- Attempt to charge you more to fix the fault?
Cheers
Never been in the situation but I always thought it depended on exactly what's been agreed.
Walk in and ask them change X and they do it, but the car's still playing up because it's actually Y that's faulty then fair enough IMO.
If you walk in and they tell you it's X, and it then turns out to be Y after you've paid them to repair/replace X and it gets a bit more murky - I'd want to be pretty clear up front depending on the potential costs.
Walk in and ask them change X and they do it, but the car's still playing up because it's actually Y that's faulty then fair enough IMO.
If you walk in and they tell you it's X, and it then turns out to be Y after you've paid them to repair/replace X and it gets a bit more murky - I'd want to be pretty clear up front depending on the potential costs.
If you can prove the first problem the fixed wasn't a problem you had asked them to fix and maybe even didn't need fixing then you should have some grounds for a bit of money back, but bear in mind asking for money back from some garages is a bit like poking a pit-bull in the eye.
I had a case of exactly this where I took a car in with a loud whirring noise, increasing with speed. The garage replaced the wheel bearing at a cost of £225 and the noise was still there. It then turned out to be a propshaft support bearing, which was a £30 part but they wanted to fit a complete shaft at £175. This was on a Volvo 740, which are not known for wearing out wheel bearings at anything less that galactic milages, but they insisted that the wheel bearing was on it's way out anyway as the grease in it was dirty (as you would expect on a sealed bearing after 200,000miles)! I never got anything back from them for doing the work, but my situation at the time made it difficult to pursue the matter very far (I was backpacking in Australia). I took it to another garage to get the prop bearing replaced though.
I had a case of exactly this where I took a car in with a loud whirring noise, increasing with speed. The garage replaced the wheel bearing at a cost of £225 and the noise was still there. It then turned out to be a propshaft support bearing, which was a £30 part but they wanted to fit a complete shaft at £175. This was on a Volvo 740, which are not known for wearing out wheel bearings at anything less that galactic milages, but they insisted that the wheel bearing was on it's way out anyway as the grease in it was dirty (as you would expect on a sealed bearing after 200,000miles)! I never got anything back from them for doing the work, but my situation at the time made it difficult to pursue the matter very far (I was backpacking in Australia). I took it to another garage to get the prop bearing replaced though.
Surely it's only reasonable that the experts know what they are doing? You take a car with a problem to be fixed and you surely expect the problem to be correctly diagnosed and repaired.
If they don't fix the problem by replacing the wrong part then they should only charge for the correct new part and the labour involved.
If they don't fix the problem by replacing the wrong part then they should only charge for the correct new part and the labour involved.
redstu said:
Surely it's only reasonable that the experts know what they are doing? You take a car with a problem to be fixed and you surely expect the problem to be correctly diagnosed and repaired.
If they don't fix the problem by replacing the wrong part then they should only charge for the correct new part and the labour involved.
The problem is modern cars are so complicated that garages are no longer really the experts. In fact most rely on stored fault codes and if this doesn't illuminate the problem then they are stumped.If they don't fix the problem by replacing the wrong part then they should only charge for the correct new part and the labour involved.
To be honest it really depends on the exact circumstances.
We've had something abit like this recently..
Customer comes in with a car that won't idle from start and lack of power.
We do a IDS and it tells us its the EGR valve is faulty.
We've had the same symptoms before but it was a fuel pump gone, but let customer know.. EGR is £130 IIRC and fuel pump is £650..
He chooses to do EGR first, doesn't fix it so we have to do the pump, but because it didn't fix it we took into account the labour charged for the EGR and took it off the pump labour.
So it depends how the garage wants to play it really.
Customer comes in with a car that won't idle from start and lack of power.
We do a IDS and it tells us its the EGR valve is faulty.
We've had the same symptoms before but it was a fuel pump gone, but let customer know.. EGR is £130 IIRC and fuel pump is £650..
He chooses to do EGR first, doesn't fix it so we have to do the pump, but because it didn't fix it we took into account the labour charged for the EGR and took it off the pump labour.
So it depends how the garage wants to play it really.
Had a fault with my old Merc e320 cdi 2 years ago- it did not kick down and went into limp mode after 2 miles/15 mins of driving. Looked on the net- changed the usual cause- Maf- no joy. Showed an indie and they wernt sure either.
Thought it best to see MB dealers and get a diagnosis. I knew it prob won't be cheap but they would know what caused it as they are Mercedes. So my dad dropped it in to my local garage. I explained to the service manager the probs. He said they would hook it up to the comp n find the problem. Two days went, no news so I rang and they said they hadn't found the problem; the charge for their 'diagnosis' over £300. They said I should change the exhaust system which could have a blockage- quote £2500 , but the fault may still be there afterwards and they woul re test it then! I could not believe it. The car was worth £4500 then, and after everything they had not found the problem and charged me royally for it!!
I took the car home- getting proper down at this point as I think what a lemon of a car I have. Dad and I manage to disconnect the exhaust and run it- and the same fault occurred=exhaust ok an £2.5k spend not required. In the end I was about to get rid, dad took it down to a backstreet garage he use to take his old motor to ages ago. They were puzzled to, but instead of popping the computer on like MB do, they had a look and a listen and found the cause was a blocked n leaking intercooler! 2nd had one off eBay n fitted all for £90.
Went back to complain to MB service manager- they didn't give a toss.
Still a bit bitter as you maybe able to tell. Oh well, no meet for councilling tonight. HTH someone else too!
Thought it best to see MB dealers and get a diagnosis. I knew it prob won't be cheap but they would know what caused it as they are Mercedes. So my dad dropped it in to my local garage. I explained to the service manager the probs. He said they would hook it up to the comp n find the problem. Two days went, no news so I rang and they said they hadn't found the problem; the charge for their 'diagnosis' over £300. They said I should change the exhaust system which could have a blockage- quote £2500 , but the fault may still be there afterwards and they woul re test it then! I could not believe it. The car was worth £4500 then, and after everything they had not found the problem and charged me royally for it!!
I took the car home- getting proper down at this point as I think what a lemon of a car I have. Dad and I manage to disconnect the exhaust and run it- and the same fault occurred=exhaust ok an £2.5k spend not required. In the end I was about to get rid, dad took it down to a backstreet garage he use to take his old motor to ages ago. They were puzzled to, but instead of popping the computer on like MB do, they had a look and a listen and found the cause was a blocked n leaking intercooler! 2nd had one off eBay n fitted all for £90.
Went back to complain to MB service manager- they didn't give a toss.
Still a bit bitter as you maybe able to tell. Oh well, no meet for councilling tonight. HTH someone else too!
There is a company called picotech who make dataloggers and engine analysis kit. I subscribe to their newsletter as I use data loggers at work.
However they also get feedback from auto electricians ( the ones that don't just read fault codes), they report on there findings when cars with unusual faults are brought in.
It makes interssting reading , and it gets right into the workings of components etc, sometimes finding new parts are actually also faulty.
If I had an engine fault I'd be seeking out one of the experts and not just taking it to a "code reader" if they appeared to only be intersted in swapping parts until they get it right.
However they also get feedback from auto electricians ( the ones that don't just read fault codes), they report on there findings when cars with unusual faults are brought in.
It makes interssting reading , and it gets right into the workings of components etc, sometimes finding new parts are actually also faulty.
If I had an engine fault I'd be seeking out one of the experts and not just taking it to a "code reader" if they appeared to only be intersted in swapping parts until they get it right.
There is an art to using the code readers. I tend to find that either mechanics use the computer as the font of all knowledge, to my cost.
Or they use it as another tool, and use the symptoms that it shows to aid diagnosis.
Hence I was old recently that my cars failure to talk to the steering control module meant that this was faulty and needed replacing. It turned out to be a faulty slip-ring preventing communication. Fortunately I was not happy with the first mechanic (who told me to take it to MB so was not after the work), so get the second opinion.
Or they use it as another tool, and use the symptoms that it shows to aid diagnosis.
Hence I was old recently that my cars failure to talk to the steering control module meant that this was faulty and needed replacing. It turned out to be a faulty slip-ring preventing communication. Fortunately I was not happy with the first mechanic (who told me to take it to MB so was not after the work), so get the second opinion.
Devil2575 said:
redstu said:
Surely it's only reasonable that the experts know what they are doing? You take a car with a problem to be fixed and you surely expect the problem to be correctly diagnosed and repaired.
If they don't fix the problem by replacing the wrong part then they should only charge for the correct new part and the labour involved.
The problem is modern cars are so complicated that garages are no longer really the experts. In fact most rely on stored fault codes and if this doesn't illuminate the problem then they are stumped.If they don't fix the problem by replacing the wrong part then they should only charge for the correct new part and the labour involved.
(Yes, this is from personal experience)
I do agree that modern cars ARE very complicated, but 90% of the moving parts would be familiar to a mechanic from the 1970s, so that's not really an excuse. The 10% that wouldn't is the electronics, and that IMHO is the biggest problem now - increasingly-sophisticated ECUs will try to compensate for the initial problem and in the process make it appear to be something else.
What would be a really useful tool for a mechanic is a "basic" map, which doesn't try and compensate - the mechanic can switch to the basic map and then run diagnostic/listen/look/poke-around! Is this feasible?
havoc said:
I do agree that modern cars ARE very complicated, but 90% of the moving parts would be familiar to a mechanic from the 1970s, so that's not really an excuse. The 10% that wouldn't is the electronics, and that IMHO is the biggest problem now - increasingly-sophisticated ECUs will try to compensate for the initial problem and in the process make it appear to be something else.
What would be a really useful tool for a mechanic is a "basic" map, which doesn't try and compensate - the mechanic can switch to the basic map and then run diagnostic/listen/look/poke-around! Is this feasible?
Trouble is that I suspect 95% of faults are with the 10% of electronics.What would be a really useful tool for a mechanic is a "basic" map, which doesn't try and compensate - the mechanic can switch to the basic map and then run diagnostic/listen/look/poke-around! Is this feasible?
Given that even a 1.6 Golf has over 50 separate control units (albeit some combined into 1 actual unit) It's a damn sight more than 10% electronics! Then you get into Can bus and duty cycling and bearing in mind just what a harsh environment a car is for electrical components with all the heat changes and vibrations it's no wonder they are unreliable!
paoloh said:
Sounds fair to me
Well, not really.We pay for their expertise!
My mate had a Focus TDCi and it would not start when hot.
His local Ford dealer replaced the alternator, battery, cambelt, starter motor, clutch and flywheel (plus tensioners & water pump) ...all at his expense.
None of these things sorted the issue but they eventually replaced a sensor and all was well.
P9 said:
paoloh said:
Sounds fair to me
Well, not really.We pay for their expertise!
My mate had a Focus TDCi and it would not start when hot.
His local Ford dealer replaced the alternator, battery, cambelt, starter motor, clutch and flywheel (plus tensioners & water pump) ...all at his expense.
None of these things sorted the issue but they eventually replaced a sensor and all was well.
Does the Manufacturer mind how much it costs the customer?
It usually says;
Replace this.. Then this.. Then this.. Ah, do that bit aswell..
If its still not fixed.. Do this bit aswell see how that does..
Nope? Umm.. Do a new engine then.
Thats how it works, customers think a diagnostics will tell them which bolt is undone by half a turn.. On the MX5 its common for the computer to tell us to replace the PCM (£1000) straight up, first thing to do.
Devil2575 said:
The problem is modern cars are so complicated that garages are no longer really the experts. In fact most rely on stored fault codes and if this doesn't illuminate the problem then they are stumped.
To be honest it really depends on the exact circumstances.
The basics still apply. Unfortunately most garages simply dont put the effort in. Find a good small independent and stick with them.To be honest it really depends on the exact circumstances.
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