Discussion
...in not being too fussed about new cars.
In terms of asthetics that are all so much bulkier than they used to be in order to fit all the safety features in and almost without exception they weigh a lot more. This means that in order to maintain performance they need bigger engines which dulls the effect of improving technology improving fuel economy. I mean in a Focus sized car these days you need a bloody great turbo before it moves with any pace. In years gone by 150bhp would give an Escort sub 8 second 0-60 ability. The 155 bhp Astra GSi 16v did it in a shade over 7 seconds but a new 2 litre focus with 145bhp takes over 9.
On top of this we seem to be getting weighed down with complicated electronics that as these cars get older has great potential to consign them to the scrap yard long before the oily bits have given up. I mean in 10 years time what's going to happen to a car when the coded ECU fails and can only be replaced with a brnad new unit fitted by a main dealer for £X thousands.
Does anyone else think like this or am I alone?
In terms of asthetics that are all so much bulkier than they used to be in order to fit all the safety features in and almost without exception they weigh a lot more. This means that in order to maintain performance they need bigger engines which dulls the effect of improving technology improving fuel economy. I mean in a Focus sized car these days you need a bloody great turbo before it moves with any pace. In years gone by 150bhp would give an Escort sub 8 second 0-60 ability. The 155 bhp Astra GSi 16v did it in a shade over 7 seconds but a new 2 litre focus with 145bhp takes over 9.
On top of this we seem to be getting weighed down with complicated electronics that as these cars get older has great potential to consign them to the scrap yard long before the oily bits have given up. I mean in 10 years time what's going to happen to a car when the coded ECU fails and can only be replaced with a brnad new unit fitted by a main dealer for £X thousands.
Does anyone else think like this or am I alone?
Devil2575 said:
...in not being too fussed about new cars.
In terms of asthetics that are all so much bulkier than they used to be in order to fit all the safety features in and almost without exception they weigh a lot more. This means that in order to maintain performance they need bigger engines which dulls the effect of improving technology improving fuel economy. I mean in a Focus sized car these days you need a bloody great turbo before it moves with any pace. In years gone by 150bhp would give an Escort sub 8 second 0-60 ability. The 155 bhp Astra GSi 16v did it in a shade over 7 seconds but a new 2 litre focus with 145bhp takes over 9.
On top of this we seem to be getting weighed down with complicated electronics that as these cars get older has great potential to consign them to the scrap yard long before the oily bits have given up. I mean in 10 years time what's going to happen to a car when the coded ECU fails and can only be replaced with a brnad new unit fitted by a main dealer for £X thousands.
Does anyone else think like this or am I alone?
The problem with the 0-60 times is multi-fold, weight has an impact, but also emissionsIn terms of asthetics that are all so much bulkier than they used to be in order to fit all the safety features in and almost without exception they weigh a lot more. This means that in order to maintain performance they need bigger engines which dulls the effect of improving technology improving fuel economy. I mean in a Focus sized car these days you need a bloody great turbo before it moves with any pace. In years gone by 150bhp would give an Escort sub 8 second 0-60 ability. The 155 bhp Astra GSi 16v did it in a shade over 7 seconds but a new 2 litre focus with 145bhp takes over 9.
On top of this we seem to be getting weighed down with complicated electronics that as these cars get older has great potential to consign them to the scrap yard long before the oily bits have given up. I mean in 10 years time what's going to happen to a car when the coded ECU fails and can only be replaced with a brnad new unit fitted by a main dealer for £X thousands.
Does anyone else think like this or am I alone?
The torque curve is shifted further up the rev range to improve emissions
Gear ratios are longer to improve fuel economy.
personaly i prefer todays heavy, safty filled slightly lower performance cars.
which one would you like a crash in (not that we want to be in a crash)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3FdnWU5ecg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1I9B04xEKA
which one would you like a crash in (not that we want to be in a crash)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3FdnWU5ecg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1I9B04xEKA
Devil2575 said:
...in not being too fussed about new cars.
In terms of asthetics that are all so much bulkier than they used to be in order to fit all the safety features in and almost without exception they weigh a lot more. This means that in order to maintain performance they need bigger engines which dulls the effect of improving technology improving fuel economy. I mean in a Focus sized car these days you need a bloody great turbo before it moves with any pace. In years gone by 150bhp would give an Escort sub 8 second 0-60 ability. The 155 bhp Astra GSi 16v did it in a shade over 7 seconds but a new 2 litre focus with 145bhp takes over 9.
On top of this we seem to be getting weighed down with complicated electronics that as these cars get older has great potential to consign them to the scrap yard long before the oily bits have given up. I mean in 10 years time what's going to happen to a car when the coded ECU fails and can only be replaced with a brnad new unit fitted by a main dealer for £X thousands.
Does anyone else think like this or am I alone?
Hmmm.... In terms of asthetics that are all so much bulkier than they used to be in order to fit all the safety features in and almost without exception they weigh a lot more. This means that in order to maintain performance they need bigger engines which dulls the effect of improving technology improving fuel economy. I mean in a Focus sized car these days you need a bloody great turbo before it moves with any pace. In years gone by 150bhp would give an Escort sub 8 second 0-60 ability. The 155 bhp Astra GSi 16v did it in a shade over 7 seconds but a new 2 litre focus with 145bhp takes over 9.
On top of this we seem to be getting weighed down with complicated electronics that as these cars get older has great potential to consign them to the scrap yard long before the oily bits have given up. I mean in 10 years time what's going to happen to a car when the coded ECU fails and can only be replaced with a brnad new unit fitted by a main dealer for £X thousands.
Does anyone else think like this or am I alone?
You pays your money and makes your choice. Even 10 year old cars have ECUs. There are specialists who supply used / refurbished ones though.
Newer cars are safer, better for the environment and generally more economical, but yes, you pay a little on the acceleration but in every other way, chances are they're more refined and better equiped.
And thats before you start talking about reliability of running an old car compared to new
As Fordo and Funk say, it's a good thing that we've got better reliability and in particular safety now (although I'm not sure reliability has moved on that much in the last fifteen years other than perhaps Alfa, Ford, Vauxhall or Ferrari).
However, I too am relatively uninterested in modern cars. Modern hatches always seem to include the phrase "commanding driving position" in their sales and press blurb, which basically means cars are taller and more wobbly, thus worse to drive. We are also in an age now where even an £80k Porsche 911 has a delay between pressing the throttle and the engine responding (here's the throttle response on my 2007 Z4 Coupé, allegedly a performance car: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MsoBlLIrNk. I just use it as my everyday car - it'll never be a driver's car with that sort of flaw in it). Weight is also increasing, so handling and performance are dulled. Other daft inventions include clutch delay valves and lifeless steering which saves fuel.
The days are gone when a base spec Peugeot could bring a huge smile to my face and make me want to take the long way home, and even performance cars are blighted with stupid electronics which don't add to the driving experience, they take it away.
To make matters worse, car journalists seem blind to all of the above things, so when I read about the latest cars which I may dream of owning I've no way of knowing if they drive well or not.
I love cars, but to be quite honest, if I could buy an E36 328i/M3 new, or a Honda NSX, Porsche 993 RS, Lotus Esprit V8, 205 GTi etc then I would in preference to modern cars. Cable throttles, low CofG, basically they were proper cars. The Elise is the only new car that's useable every day that I genuinely rate as a driver's car - the brakes, whilst servoed, are reasonable, the DBW throttle is ok, the steering still unassisted, and no need for this ridiculous "commanding" driving position
However, I too am relatively uninterested in modern cars. Modern hatches always seem to include the phrase "commanding driving position" in their sales and press blurb, which basically means cars are taller and more wobbly, thus worse to drive. We are also in an age now where even an £80k Porsche 911 has a delay between pressing the throttle and the engine responding (here's the throttle response on my 2007 Z4 Coupé, allegedly a performance car: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MsoBlLIrNk. I just use it as my everyday car - it'll never be a driver's car with that sort of flaw in it). Weight is also increasing, so handling and performance are dulled. Other daft inventions include clutch delay valves and lifeless steering which saves fuel.
The days are gone when a base spec Peugeot could bring a huge smile to my face and make me want to take the long way home, and even performance cars are blighted with stupid electronics which don't add to the driving experience, they take it away.
To make matters worse, car journalists seem blind to all of the above things, so when I read about the latest cars which I may dream of owning I've no way of knowing if they drive well or not.
I love cars, but to be quite honest, if I could buy an E36 328i/M3 new, or a Honda NSX, Porsche 993 RS, Lotus Esprit V8, 205 GTi etc then I would in preference to modern cars. Cable throttles, low CofG, basically they were proper cars. The Elise is the only new car that's useable every day that I genuinely rate as a driver's car - the brakes, whilst servoed, are reasonable, the DBW throttle is ok, the steering still unassisted, and no need for this ridiculous "commanding" driving position
RobM77 said:
I love cars, but to be quite honest, if I could buy an E36 328i/M3 new, or a Honda NSX, Porsche 993 RS, Lotus Esprit V8, 205 GTi etc then I would in preference to modern cars.
Why not buy a good used one then? Running costs would be more than offset by the lack of depreciation costs of a new car?daemon said:
RobM77 said:
I love cars, but to be quite honest, if I could buy an E36 328i/M3 new, or a Honda NSX, Porsche 993 RS, Lotus Esprit V8, 205 GTi etc then I would in preference to modern cars.
Why not buy a good used one then? Running costs would be more than offset by the lack of depreciation costs of a new car?The other thing is that any car of that age is going to need a lot of money spending on it to make it drive as well as it did when new. The average E36 M3 for instance will have done 80k miles and be over yen years old and to get back to factory fresh will require all new suspension, bushes, brake discs, pads and a load of other things, not to mention the possibilty of engine work to make it last another 80k miles with the full bhp compliment. Add to that a myriad of other things will start to wear (steering, air con, sensors, gearbox, diff etc).
My Dad's restored a few classic cars, and he says it always costs him as much as the car was worth new to do it properly (allowing for inflation).
My ideal situation if I was a lottery winner would be to re-engineer a modern car to get the best of both worlds. I'd take a 997 C2S for instance, fit it with a cable throttle (as the race cars have), a proper linear steering rack, improve steering feel somehow, remove the rear seats to save weight and get rid of that silly clock on the dashboard
Oh, and you can keep all the electronic driver aids other than ABS, which I believe does actually improve my safety.Just in relation to the OP's point about complex electronics; personally, I wouldn't be surprised if ten years from now, Halfords routinely stocked software/laptops etc alongside a few traditional tools.
I think we're in a transition period - the latest cars are, technologically speaking, far removed from those used cars that home mechanics tend to work on at the moment. As todays cars get older and the 3rd or 4th owners want to maintain them themselves, I'm sure there will be a range of appropriate 3rd party products around that will allow them to do so. Right now, I don't think the demand is necessarily sufficient to make it worth anyone's while.
Basically though, I don't belive this commonly heard prediction that today's cars will become scrap because of dodgy electronics. People will just have to get handy at tweaking software as well as knowing one end of a screwdriver from the other.
I think we're in a transition period - the latest cars are, technologically speaking, far removed from those used cars that home mechanics tend to work on at the moment. As todays cars get older and the 3rd or 4th owners want to maintain them themselves, I'm sure there will be a range of appropriate 3rd party products around that will allow them to do so. Right now, I don't think the demand is necessarily sufficient to make it worth anyone's while.
Basically though, I don't belive this commonly heard prediction that today's cars will become scrap because of dodgy electronics. People will just have to get handy at tweaking software as well as knowing one end of a screwdriver from the other.
Edited by Risotto on Sunday 16th May 15:26
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