Electric Vehicles
Discussion
Managed to get this report published yesterday - you may have seen a bit of it about in the national papers.
http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/releases/shownews.htm...
As someone intemately involved in drafting the report, I don't want to prejudice any views, but I'm very interested in hearing them - good or bad. Oh - and if we may, can we take the take the climate change argument as read. We wrote the report on the basis that we need to try and meet Govt emissions reduction targets regardless of the reasons for setting them is right or wrong (the Law is like that sometimes).
http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/releases/shownews.htm...
As someone intemately involved in drafting the report, I don't want to prejudice any views, but I'm very interested in hearing them - good or bad. Oh - and if we may, can we take the take the climate change argument as read. We wrote the report on the basis that we need to try and meet Govt emissions reduction targets regardless of the reasons for setting them is right or wrong (the Law is like that sometimes).
Edited by ploz on Thursday 27th May 09:24
Indeed, link isn't working.
My only real view on electric cars is; i cant see myself ever owning one until they're as light as todays hatchbacks, pushing 200bhp and able to run at 200bhp for at least 300 miles in between charges, with 600 available with conservative driving. Until then, i cant see it catching on. IMO
My only real view on electric cars is; i cant see myself ever owning one until they're as light as todays hatchbacks, pushing 200bhp and able to run at 200bhp for at least 300 miles in between charges, with 600 available with conservative driving. Until then, i cant see it catching on. IMO
Edited by FussyFez on Wednesday 26th May 20:14
Edited by FussyFez on Wednesday 26th May 20:15
FussyFez said:
Indeed, link isn't working.
My only real view on electric cars is; i cant see myself ever owning one until they're as light as todays hatchbacks, pushing 200bhp and able to run at 200bhp for at least 300 miles in between charges, with 600 available with conservative driving. Until then, i cant see it catching on. IMO
Yup, sums me up too, as soon as the range is the same as an equiv petrol AND the cost of electricity is lower then no chance. As soon as electric cars take off then they will be taxed exactly the same as the petrol equiv so the cost savings right now will not still be there in 10-20 years time.My only real view on electric cars is; i cant see myself ever owning one until they're as light as todays hatchbacks, pushing 200bhp and able to run at 200bhp for at least 300 miles in between charges, with 600 available with conservative driving. Until then, i cant see it catching on. IMO
Edited by FussyFez on Wednesday 26th May 20:14
Edited by FussyFez on Wednesday 26th May 20:15
300miles at 200bhp? Show me a car that can do that today?
So you want its first entry to market to superscede the petrol engine by quite a significant amount?
You could build one that would meet your criteria, it would be a big car expensive car with limited seating and significant weight problem, essentially each day would be carrying a factor of 3 times as many batteries. That extra mass then means you need to put more electric into the car each day to go the same distance to work and back in a slower less dynamic car, I see no reason to demand massive range?
The Chevy Volt will be this, so will quite a few other cars, electric and 300miles at a cheaper refuel price.
That link, just click home and you can trace it through to the EV stuff, it makes a good read.
Some options for 300mile range?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solectria_Sunrise
http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/mira-ev-shatters-pr...
ymwoods said:
FussyFez said:
Indeed, link isn't working.
My only real view on electric cars is; i cant see myself ever owning one until they're as light as todays hatchbacks, pushing 200bhp and able to run at 200bhp for at least 300 miles in between charges, with 600 available with conservative driving. Until then, i cant see it catching on. IMO
Yup, sums me up too, as soon as the range is the same as an equiv petrol AND the cost of electricity is lower then no chance. As soon as electric cars take off then they will be taxed exactly the same as the petrol equiv so the cost savings right now will not still be there in 10-20 years time.My only real view on electric cars is; i cant see myself ever owning one until they're as light as todays hatchbacks, pushing 200bhp and able to run at 200bhp for at least 300 miles in between charges, with 600 available with conservative driving. Until then, i cant see it catching on. IMO
Edited by FussyFez on Wednesday 26th May 20:14
Edited by FussyFez on Wednesday 26th May 20:15
You could build one that would meet your criteria, it would be a big car expensive car with limited seating and significant weight problem, essentially each day would be carrying a factor of 3 times as many batteries. That extra mass then means you need to put more electric into the car each day to go the same distance to work and back in a slower less dynamic car, I see no reason to demand massive range?
The Chevy Volt will be this, so will quite a few other cars, electric and 300miles at a cheaper refuel price.
That link, just click home and you can trace it through to the EV stuff, it makes a good read.
Some options for 300mile range?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solectria_Sunrise
http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/mira-ev-shatters-pr...
Edited by JonnyVTEC on Wednesday 26th May 23:17
JonnyVTEC said:
300miles at 200bhp? Show me a car that can do that today?
So you want its first entry to market to superscede the petrol engine by quite a significant amount?
(some stuff missing)
The Chevy Volt will be this, so will quite a few other cars, electric and 300miles at a cheaper refuel price.
Some options for 300mile range?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solectria_Sunrise
http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/mira-ev-shatters-pr...
The difference is that on a longer journey I just stop off at a petrol station, give it 5 mins to fill the tank and I am off again.ymwoods said:
FussyFez said:
i cant see myself ever owning one until they're as light as todays hatchbacks, pushing 200bhp and able to run at 200bhp for at least 300 miles in between charges, with 600 available with conservative driving.
Yup, sums me up too, as soon as the range is the same as an equiv petrol AND the cost of electricity is lower then no chance. As soon as electric cars take off then they will be taxed exactly the same as the petrol equiv so the cost savings right now will not still be there in 10-20 years time.Edited by FussyFez on Wednesday 26th May 20:14
Edited by FussyFez on Wednesday 26th May 20:15
(some stuff missing)
The Chevy Volt will be this, so will quite a few other cars, electric and 300miles at a cheaper refuel price.
Some options for 300mile range?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solectria_Sunrise
http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/mira-ev-shatters-pr...
All of these cars take an age to fully charge for any meaningful range. I do not want to only get 100 or so miles out of it and have to pull over, plug it in and then either sleep in it or spend the best part of 50-60 quid at a hotel. Thats why I would need a 300 mile odd range.
If petrol stations sold fully charged replacment batteries for every car at comparable prices to petrol then it would be a go-er...until then, they are only good enough for short journeys and I can do long and short journeys in my current car no problem thanks.
Would buy an electric car in a heartbeat if one came along that could
1 Do 80mph easily as i don't need to go any faster
2 Have a range of about 100 miles as i don't need a range longer then that as my work is 20 miles away
3 Can seat 2 folk
4 Wasn't stupidly expensive.
5 Could recharge from a 3 pin 13amp plug overnight
A day to day car need not do any more then above as i have other cars that are faster, bigger and have a longer range.
1 Do 80mph easily as i don't need to go any faster
2 Have a range of about 100 miles as i don't need a range longer then that as my work is 20 miles away
3 Can seat 2 folk
4 Wasn't stupidly expensive.
5 Could recharge from a 3 pin 13amp plug overnight
A day to day car need not do any more then above as i have other cars that are faster, bigger and have a longer range.
Has ANYONE got any figures for the charging costs (and CO² used when generating the power) so that we can throw the rubbish talked by the warmists about electrovehicles back in their faces.
I remember as a kid helping on a milkrun on a milk float that the fleet manager said they were actually much more inneficient than a diesel costwise but were kept on due to the noise level, or lack of same.
I'm pretty sure that with actual figures on this "oh so dangerous" (my arse) CO² that we can put an end to this ridiculous argument using their own points.
Electric vehicles will have a place when:-
they can run at 100kph for a day
have a range of over 1000km on one charge
and cost no more than a present car
Even the much praised Tesla actually ran for only 50 miles on the track when TopGear were testing it, after the first one broke.....
I remember as a kid helping on a milkrun on a milk float that the fleet manager said they were actually much more inneficient than a diesel costwise but were kept on due to the noise level, or lack of same.
I'm pretty sure that with actual figures on this "oh so dangerous" (my arse) CO² that we can put an end to this ridiculous argument using their own points.
Electric vehicles will have a place when:-
they can run at 100kph for a day
have a range of over 1000km on one charge
and cost no more than a present car
Even the much praised Tesla actually ran for only 50 miles on the track when TopGear were testing it, after the first one broke.....
I agree with the gist of it. People wont take it up until the range is as good as their petrol car and they can 'fill it up' in under 10 minutes at the side of the road if they want to travel cross country (i.e. huge amount of high speed charging infrastructure).
That requires significant advances in electricity infrastructure and battery energy density, both of which are perfectly feasible. I suspect it'll be the next iteration (or the one after) of recession/oil crisis led EV fashion that nails it, not this one.
Range extenders and methanol for theworld moment.
That requires significant advances in electricity infrastructure and battery energy density, both of which are perfectly feasible. I suspect it'll be the next iteration (or the one after) of recession/oil crisis led EV fashion that nails it, not this one.
Range extenders and methanol for the
Link still not working, but my opinion of the current breed of electric cars is that they do not suit me and my interests or needs in motoring.
If I wanted or needed to significantly reduce my motoring based carbon emissions I would simply run a more economical internal combustion engine. Be that a small engined car or a motorbike. Either of these would be more appealing than any of the commercially available electric cars.
My transportation/motoring budget is very limited so there is no way I could afford to buy or lease any of electric cars on offer, so if petrol/diesel ran out or was banned tomorrow I would be looking for a new job that I could walk or cycle to.
I can see how they would work for some people though, so they do have their purpose, particularly as those people who bought them would have no need for petrol meaning more for me to use.
If I wanted or needed to significantly reduce my motoring based carbon emissions I would simply run a more economical internal combustion engine. Be that a small engined car or a motorbike. Either of these would be more appealing than any of the commercially available electric cars.
My transportation/motoring budget is very limited so there is no way I could afford to buy or lease any of electric cars on offer, so if petrol/diesel ran out or was banned tomorrow I would be looking for a new job that I could walk or cycle to.
I can see how they would work for some people though, so they do have their purpose, particularly as those people who bought them would have no need for petrol meaning more for me to use.
JMGS4 said:
Has ANYONE got any figures for the charging costs (and CO² used when generating the power) so that we can throw the rubbish talked by the warmists about electrovehicles back in their faces.
I remember as a kid helping on a milkrun on a milk float that the fleet manager said they were actually much more inneficient than a diesel costwise but were kept on due to the noise level, or lack of same.
I'm pretty sure that with actual figures on this "oh so dangerous" (my arse) CO² that we can put an end to this ridiculous argument using their own points.
Electric vehicles will have a place when:-
they can run at 100kph for a day
have a range of over 1000km on one charge
and cost no more than a present car
Even the much praised Tesla actually ran for only 50 miles on the track when TopGear were testing it, after the first one broke.....
There is a reason they are not readily availiable.... Its the same with the Pious though, the industrial wasteland the battery plant has created is appauling, but Toyota won't show you that as it will ruin their eco stance. I remember as a kid helping on a milkrun on a milk float that the fleet manager said they were actually much more inneficient than a diesel costwise but were kept on due to the noise level, or lack of same.
I'm pretty sure that with actual figures on this "oh so dangerous" (my arse) CO² that we can put an end to this ridiculous argument using their own points.
Electric vehicles will have a place when:-
they can run at 100kph for a day
have a range of over 1000km on one charge
and cost no more than a present car
Even the much praised Tesla actually ran for only 50 miles on the track when TopGear were testing it, after the first one broke.....
CHarging costs for small cars being trialed now is about £2.00 per charge overnight. CO2 emissions are reckoned to be about 80g/km in real driving conditions around Newcastle - Polo Bluemotion is approaching that but not quite there.
Lets move the topic a little away from pure electrics - How would you react to a series hybrid such as the Lotus Evora technology which allows you to run about 80% of journeys on pure electric drive with a petrol driven range extender for longer trips?
Lets move the topic a little away from pure electrics - How would you react to a series hybrid such as the Lotus Evora technology which allows you to run about 80% of journeys on pure electric drive with a petrol driven range extender for longer trips?
mike325112 said:
JMGS4 said:
Has ANYONE got any figures for the charging costs (and CO² used when generating the power) so that we can throw the rubbish talked by the warmists about electrovehicles back in their faces.
I remember as a kid helping on a milkrun on a milk float that the fleet manager said they were actually much more inneficient than a diesel costwise but were kept on due to the noise level, or lack of same.
I'm pretty sure that with actual figures on this "oh so dangerous" (my arse) CO² that we can put an end to this ridiculous argument using their own points.
Electric vehicles will have a place when:-
they can run at 100kph for a day
have a range of over 1000km on one charge
and cost no more than a present car
Even the much praised Tesla actually ran for only 50 miles on the track when TopGear were testing it, after the first one broke.....
There is a reason they are not readily availiable.... Its the same with the Pious though, the industrial wasteland the battery plant has created is appauling, but Toyota won't show you that as it will ruin their eco stance. I remember as a kid helping on a milkrun on a milk float that the fleet manager said they were actually much more inneficient than a diesel costwise but were kept on due to the noise level, or lack of same.
I'm pretty sure that with actual figures on this "oh so dangerous" (my arse) CO² that we can put an end to this ridiculous argument using their own points.
Electric vehicles will have a place when:-
they can run at 100kph for a day
have a range of over 1000km on one charge
and cost no more than a present car
Even the much praised Tesla actually ran for only 50 miles on the track when TopGear were testing it, after the first one broke.....
If you're going to have a problem with battery manufacture, you should talk about the ridiculous logistics involved and the sweat shops in China where they're put together
For me, the range of pure electric cars isn't the issue. My daily commute is 22 miles and the only time I need range in excess of 100 miles would be on holidays, but that is only 2 or three times a year so other options would be available.
It all boils down to costs. I can buy a perfectly serviceable petrol car for less than £1000. That car can realistically last me for years. DIY servicing costs would be less than £100 per year, fuel approximately £1100-1200 per year.
Do electric or hybrids approach those figures?. I can't see there being much servicing to do on an electric car but even so I doubt it would be within my DIY grasp. Repairs certainly would need to be handled by a specialist at significantly higher costs than my free labour.
If there was an electric or hybrid option available with annual costs not exceeding £2000-2500 (including vehicle acquisition) then I would seriously consider it.
How far away are we from that?.
It all boils down to costs. I can buy a perfectly serviceable petrol car for less than £1000. That car can realistically last me for years. DIY servicing costs would be less than £100 per year, fuel approximately £1100-1200 per year.
Do electric or hybrids approach those figures?. I can't see there being much servicing to do on an electric car but even so I doubt it would be within my DIY grasp. Repairs certainly would need to be handled by a specialist at significantly higher costs than my free labour.
If there was an electric or hybrid option available with annual costs not exceeding £2000-2500 (including vehicle acquisition) then I would seriously consider it.
How far away are we from that?.
The four points of the report are common sense. Personally, I don't care for saving the environment/world/etc., thus an electric car had to compete price-wise and functionality wise (range, speed, etc.) with its gas competitor at a similar cost. I won't pay 10% more for all of those same things in an electric car, for example. Also, I had to know that my range/performance would not be eroded over time, through hot/cold, or need replacing ($$$) after x number of miles.
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