Getting 'Good with spanners'
Discussion
I've managed to bimble through life so far without really managing to get my hands dirty when it comes to motoring. If I tell the truth the most complicated thing I've done is change the cooling hoses on a Caterham. I've loved all my cars, but it's always seemed wiser to let someone who actually knows what they're doing attack them with spanners. So that's my little confession, I'm not really a very good PH'er at all, but I'm trying to become a better person. Honestly, I am 
I went through education down the computing route, so no practical skills there. I've settled into a career that requires a fairly technical way of thinking and good academic knowledge of some similar engineering, but doesn't provide much in the way of getting involved and taking things apart/putting them together. On top of this I don't have ready access to a garage, so getting hold of a 'shed' and tinkering would be awkward as well as random and unguided.
I've had a look at courses etc that some places run, but they're mostly NVQ type things that are run over 6 months and lead to qualifications, and I'm not looking to change career or anything, so they're out.
The preferable option at the moment would be somewhere reasonably local that needs somebody to help out/make tea at the weekends or similar, or maybe a club racer that would help me out in return for a dogsbody type at race weekends. Is that feasible? Has anybody here done it?
Clearly there are a few members here who are pretty handy, how did you get there? Did anyone else come to it late? Anyone in Oxfordshire who doesn't mind answering stupid questions in return for a steady supply of tea/coffee?
And mods, if this is the wrong place please move it somewhere more appropriate, I just thought it was a little out of place in the technical forums.
Al
I went through education down the computing route, so no practical skills there. I've settled into a career that requires a fairly technical way of thinking and good academic knowledge of some similar engineering, but doesn't provide much in the way of getting involved and taking things apart/putting them together. On top of this I don't have ready access to a garage, so getting hold of a 'shed' and tinkering would be awkward as well as random and unguided.
I've had a look at courses etc that some places run, but they're mostly NVQ type things that are run over 6 months and lead to qualifications, and I'm not looking to change career or anything, so they're out.
The preferable option at the moment would be somewhere reasonably local that needs somebody to help out/make tea at the weekends or similar, or maybe a club racer that would help me out in return for a dogsbody type at race weekends. Is that feasible? Has anybody here done it?
Clearly there are a few members here who are pretty handy, how did you get there? Did anyone else come to it late? Anyone in Oxfordshire who doesn't mind answering stupid questions in return for a steady supply of tea/coffee?
And mods, if this is the wrong place please move it somewhere more appropriate, I just thought it was a little out of place in the technical forums.
Al
Check if any of your local colleges do car maintenance evening classes. I did one with a group of other local PH'ers and it was really good. Didn't go into any great depth but covered a lot of the basics such as changing brakes. The best thing was that it gave me the confidence to get stuck in and get my hands dirty 
Do you have any friends who are good at fiddling with cars? Because although ive always loved cars id never have known where to start without my stepdad (whos a mechanic for jcb) giving me some lessons. Whenever something needed doing (like wheel bearings, brakes changing etc) he'd talk me through it step by step. Although im still not amazing i did change my radiator and clean out my carb's on my Jetta the other day with no guidance
I started last year with simple stuff on my own car - brake consumables, engine oil and the like. As you work your way through these jobs you'll become more familiar with the areas you're working - having your head in a wheel arch for half an hour changing your first set of brake pads will get you quite acquainted with just the general layout of your suspension workings; likewise having a good nosey round your engine bay whilst changing an oil filter and seeing which belts drive which accessories, where various things are mounted - really really simple stuff like that.
I'd never used a spanner in anger until I got my MX-5 last year. A decent workshop manual and the right tools got me started on the simple jobs, and now I'm half way through replacing my rear wishbones, front ball joints, and shocks/springs all round. It's good fun, but patience is also the key. I wouldn't want to start learning on my daily driver. When things go wrong (and they do
) you want to be able to take a step back, work out a plan and learn from the whole thing without the pressure of needing the car back by a deadline.
I'd never used a spanner in anger until I got my MX-5 last year. A decent workshop manual and the right tools got me started on the simple jobs, and now I'm half way through replacing my rear wishbones, front ball joints, and shocks/springs all round. It's good fun, but patience is also the key. I wouldn't want to start learning on my daily driver. When things go wrong (and they do
) you want to be able to take a step back, work out a plan and learn from the whole thing without the pressure of needing the car back by a deadline.The evening classes are something I'm looking into, not having much luck so far though. As for friends etc it's an aspect of life where my immediate circle doesn't have a lot of expertise. I guess you could say I'm kinda looking for a surrogate version of your stepdad (I hope there are no psychiatrists reading this!) as it's a 2hr drive to our closest family contact with any real talent for such things.
Bonzo, that may well end up being the solution, although I'm probably going to have to look into renting a garage somewhere to get it done. Embarrassingly I've just noticed the regional forums, which is probably where I should have put this in the first place...
Live and learn
Bonzo, that may well end up being the solution, although I'm probably going to have to look into renting a garage somewhere to get it done. Embarrassingly I've just noticed the regional forums, which is probably where I should have put this in the first place...
Live and learn
OctalStan said:
how did you get there? Did anyone else come to it late?
I was a bit like you.I always wanted to be like my mates and work on my own cars but didn't.
When i had y last caterham i did a few very very simple bits like you, started to collect some tools and watched others work on my caterham as well. I had my engine out at one point and stored in my garage. I think seeing the car being fixed and worked on helped me cross a few mental barriers.
When i got my 968 it all changed and I was determined to do nearly everything myself.
Suspension and brakes are easy things to start with and build confidence with. Maybe think about getting a suitable car that helps you learn more and more. I found that just investigating my 968, the way it all worked, helped me enourmously. You could potentially get a cheap car, something fun like the mx5 that you can spanner and upgrade/maintain and generally poke around and investigate. Set yourself a project, its arguably a better way of learning than a course.
If I can pass on 3 tips though (that no one ever told me) these would be:
1. confidence
2. patience and a methodical attitude
3. tools
1. Its all about confidence. Part of teh reason it took me so long to dive in was a lack of confidence and also the fact that motor mechanics does not marry very well with my perfectionsit and creative nature. Its not a creative pastime and its something that jars with perfectionsim. But when all is said and done its basically undoing things and then doing them up so dont be afraid, get stuck in and build your confidence. Remember if it all goes pear shaped there is ALWAYS someone on a forum or the end of a telephone who can help you move things along. Don't be afraid to use brute force, its something you'll use quite a lot and that's a part of it I had to get used to as I am used to things fitting togthere neatly, working in perfect harmony and being 'just so'. When it comes to cars though they aren't really like that and sooner or later you will need to reach for an enormous mallett. Working on cars is an inexact science and there's often a very inelegant and clumsy nature to its proceedure. Depending on what sort of things you are used to doing in your life this is another mental barrier that you might have to get over. Accept that many jobs inevitably involve a certain amount of banging, thumping, twisting, cajoling, teasing etc.. and sheer force and elbow grease. The great thing about working on your own cars though is that you can bring some perfectionism back into the mix and you can do things just as YOU like to. Whether its following the proper torque figures, properly tightening bushes at the cars rest pose, tiny dabs of waxoyl on specific screws and nuts, accurate use of copperslip and optymoly, PTFE tape around brake nipples, torque marks across screw heads etc.
2. Never rush anything. Never get angry (its easy to do so) and always work steadily, thinking about what you are doing and what the implications are. If the nut suddenely loosens, the hand that is pulling with all your might on that spanner... will it swing back voilently and hit something nasty ??? Think methodically and think ahead, don't rush and if you find yourself getting frustrated then take a break. Accidents can happen and even simple things can become dangerous.
3. NEVER skimp on tools. And don't think a hafords pro socket set will get you through. Get all the weird and wonderful tools as well beacuse you WILL need them and life becomes very difficult without them. So that means circlip pliers, pipe grips, mole grips, chisels, drifts, files, obstruction spanners, bit ratchets, long reach screwdrivers, slim ratchets, breaker bars, impact sockets, stubby spanners, wet and dry, a good vice, penetrating fluid, oils, a gas blow torch, an electrical connector kit, inspection mirror, magnet pickup tool, needle nose pliers blah balh etc etc... My advice is not to buy rubbish as it won't last. Halfords pro is pretty good for most of the general stuff. The likes of Facom and snap on is better. Ebay is your friend here, I recently acquired around 12k of snap on stuff for only around 3k.
bets of luck
Once you get stuck in it doesn't half open up the opportunities for the cars you can buy as you save so much on costs. It also enhances the ownership experience tenfold and takes it into a totally new dimension and level of satisfaction and involvement. For me, when I own a car now, 50% of the enjoyment is knowing how it works, how it was designed and built and where every nut and bolt goes.
Edited by jackal on Saturday 5th June 23:34
jackal said:
3. NEVER skimp on tools. And don't think a hafords pro socket set will get you through. Get all the weird and wonderful tools as well beacuse you WILL need them and life becomes very difficult without them. So that means circlip pliers, pipe grips, mole grips, chisels, drifts, files, obstruction spanners, bit ratchets, long reach screwdrivers, slim ratchets, breaker bars, impact sockets, stubby spanners, wet and dry, a good vice, penetrating fluid, oils, a gas blow torch, an electrical connector kit, inspection mirror, magnet pickup tool, needle nose pliers blah balh etc etc... My advice is not to buy rubbish as it won't last. Halfords pro is pretty good for most of the general stuff. The likes of Facom and snap on is better. Ebay is your friend here, I recently acquired around 12k of snap on stuff for only around 3k.
Your tool kit cost over three times the price of mine, and I'm a mechanic! I knew nothing about fixing cars.
Then I stripped down my car to do a nut and bolt restoration. I know a bit more about fixing cars now.
The only task I haven't tried yet is rebuilding an engine (I failed on rebulding a gearbox, but it was too far gone to repair economically) but that's mainly due to not having a workshop. I do all my fixing outside (changing brakepipes on a car that's been used as a cat toilet, which is parked on a lawn, in the rain, is not much fun)
Then I stripped down my car to do a nut and bolt restoration. I know a bit more about fixing cars now.
The only task I haven't tried yet is rebuilding an engine (I failed on rebulding a gearbox, but it was too far gone to repair economically) but that's mainly due to not having a workshop. I do all my fixing outside (changing brakepipes on a car that's been used as a cat toilet, which is parked on a lawn, in the rain, is not much fun)
EDLT said:
jackal said:
3. NEVER skimp on tools. And don't think a hafords pro socket set will get you through. Get all the weird and wonderful tools as well beacuse you WILL need them and life becomes very difficult without them. So that means circlip pliers, pipe grips, mole grips, chisels, drifts, files, obstruction spanners, bit ratchets, long reach screwdrivers, slim ratchets, breaker bars, impact sockets, stubby spanners, wet and dry, a good vice, penetrating fluid, oils, a gas blow torch, an electrical connector kit, inspection mirror, magnet pickup tool, needle nose pliers blah balh etc etc... My advice is not to buy rubbish as it won't last. Halfords pro is pretty good for most of the general stuff. The likes of Facom and snap on is better. Ebay is your friend here, I recently acquired around 12k of snap on stuff for only around 3k.
Your tool kit cost over three times the price of mine, and I'm a mechanic! even a decent compressor or cordless impact gun will cost half that ?
The compressor is supplied by the garage I work in. I don't have a cordless impact gun because we have a compressor and air guns are less than half the price, more powerful and more reliable.
I've spent about £650-£700 on tools so far, I've got a few more things to get but it should come in at around £1k when I'm "finished".
I've spent about £650-£700 on tools so far, I've got a few more things to get but it should come in at around £1k when I'm "finished".
Just throw yourself in at the deep end, and find someone who can give a bit of guidance when you do get stuck. Lot's of indy mechanics will be more than happy to talk you through things.
I recently bought a car with a blown head gasket for £50. I've now replaced the head gasket, done the timing belt and a few other things I'd never done before. When I sell it I might only just break even on parts and time I've put into it, but at least I now know how to do it and worst come to worst I would have just sold the car in parts and recouped my £50 that way. Nothing to loose!
Whatever you do, don't do as Jackal has said and spend loads of money on tools you don't need and will never use. I did the whole headgasket change with a £100 socket set (bit of a luxury but I use it nearly every day) and a £30 tool kit someone got me for my 21st birthday. I borrowed a torque wrench for the head bolts.
I recently bought a car with a blown head gasket for £50. I've now replaced the head gasket, done the timing belt and a few other things I'd never done before. When I sell it I might only just break even on parts and time I've put into it, but at least I now know how to do it and worst come to worst I would have just sold the car in parts and recouped my £50 that way. Nothing to loose!
Whatever you do, don't do as Jackal has said and spend loads of money on tools you don't need and will never use. I did the whole headgasket change with a £100 socket set (bit of a luxury but I use it nearly every day) and a £30 tool kit someone got me for my 21st birthday. I borrowed a torque wrench for the head bolts.
OctalStan said:
I'm probably going to have to look into renting a garage somewhere to get it done.
Flat driveway and a big parasol for when it rains/when it gets too sunny. 
Some very good stuff mentioned above, but I personally wouldn't go overboard with tools just yet. I've managed fine with a Costco socket set (quickly replaced with a Halfords Pro 6-point set - 12-point sockets are terrible on rusty fixings!), a Lidl (seriously!
) Torque wrench, some spring compressors, a lump hammer, some good Stanley screwdrivers and spanners, a box of mixed electrical wiring and connectors, a cheap crimp tool and enough WD40 to float a ship. You'll soon learn to get additional stuff as and when you need it before you start a job (e.g. big clamps and washers for squeezing suspension bushes into place) and also when not to bother with fancy tools. Oil filter wrenches for example - you're hardly going to reuse a filter, so why not just bash a screwdriver through it and save the money you'd have spent on a Boa/strap wrench?
busta said:
Whatever you do, don't do as Jackal has said and spend loads of money on tools you don't need and will never use. I did the whole headgasket change with a £100 socket set (bit of a luxury but I use it nearly every day) and a £30 tool kit someone got me for my 21st birthday. I borrowed a torque wrench for the head bolts.
Thats the way to do it. There are "starter" tool kits available with more than you'll need for DIY work for a little over £100 in machine mart, and that includes the tool box to keep them in. They won't be top quality tools but you don't need them unless you use them every day (and even then its a subject of some debate among mechanics).
by all means build the tools as you go
but I would be wary of falling into a 'tool shy' mentality
if you have the money, then spend it because often, it makes life a hell of a lot easier
don't be too hard on yourself and expect to get through jobs with just screwdrivers and sockets
e.g. take replacing 993 front A arm bushes
I did it with no vice, no proper chisels and just a basic metal hammer and a screwdriver. It took me 4 hours or more and it was an unplesant experience and totally unenjoyable. My hands were badly injured as well after it all. Rather you than me.
I bought a hydraulic press soon after (which paid for itself pretty quickly) and now the same job takes me 15 minutes or so. Its a bit more fun now as well as you might imagine.
but I would be wary of falling into a 'tool shy' mentality
if you have the money, then spend it because often, it makes life a hell of a lot easier
don't be too hard on yourself and expect to get through jobs with just screwdrivers and sockets
e.g. take replacing 993 front A arm bushes
I did it with no vice, no proper chisels and just a basic metal hammer and a screwdriver. It took me 4 hours or more and it was an unplesant experience and totally unenjoyable. My hands were badly injured as well after it all. Rather you than me.
I bought a hydraulic press soon after (which paid for itself pretty quickly) and now the same job takes me 15 minutes or so. Its a bit more fun now as well as you might imagine.
Edited by jackal on Sunday 6th June 00:56
busta said:
Whatever you do, don't do as Jackal has said and spend loads of money on tools you don't need and will never use. I did the whole headgasket change with a £100 socket set (bit of a luxury but I use it nearly every day) and a £30 tool kit someone got me for my 21st birthday. I borrowed a torque wrench for the head bolts.
No, you are wrong. And you are misrepresenting what I have said. I use every single tool I have bought, frequently too. If you can't afford proper tools that will still be serving you 10 or 20 years on then get another hobby. You should never bodge a job, its a car, a thing that moves often at high speed with living occupants inside.If you don't understand the value of good tools then clearly you;ve never broken any which in turn, means that you don't know enough about the subject really. All tools break. Crap tools break a lot more frequently and if you're unlucky, it will hurt lots when they break !
What you are describing is a very painful way of doing things. Beyond the simplest jobs you will just end up hating what you are doing and runinng into all sorts of problems
I don't know what cars you work on but i've found that most jobs you DO need specialised tools and good quality ones as well
The last thing you want is to mangle up say a cam saddle triple square bolt with a crappy driver from your local factors
all you'll do is end up having to TOW THE CAR to a proper dealer who can then use the real thing on it
same with say calipers for example
if you don't have a way to heat up your brake pipes or a proper flare nut spanner to get the damm things off then once again you'll be towing the car to a garage, calling up a mate to come round or phoning a mobile mech
there is NO point doing any of this unless you are going to do it properly
Sure, no need to spend 3k from the get go... i only did that because I was effectively replacing a whoel collection I hads already built up. But DO buy the correct things as and when you need them.
Edited by jackal on Sunday 6th June 01:02
I'd agree on getting the best tools you can afford (within reason, of course) - personally, I dont think there is much wrong with Halfords Pro from the home mechanic point of view. I know plenty of proper mechanics that use them.
Apart from a decent set of sockets and spanners, best tool I have is a Snap-On cordless 18v impact gun. Not failed to undo anything yet, and I have tried plenty of times - crank pulleys, hub nuts, it does it, without fail.
Decent lighting equipment can be useful also.
A decent set of tools takes a long time to accumulate - buy what you need as you go along.
I think the main thing is to actually understand how what you are attempting to repair works in the first place - what goes where, how one item acts on another, that sort of thing. Then, if something does go wrong, you are in with a chance. I have seen too many people try basic stuff and f
k it up because they just dont even understand what they are trying to fix, let alone work out how to do it.
Apart from a decent set of sockets and spanners, best tool I have is a Snap-On cordless 18v impact gun. Not failed to undo anything yet, and I have tried plenty of times - crank pulleys, hub nuts, it does it, without fail.
Decent lighting equipment can be useful also.
A decent set of tools takes a long time to accumulate - buy what you need as you go along.
I think the main thing is to actually understand how what you are attempting to repair works in the first place - what goes where, how one item acts on another, that sort of thing. Then, if something does go wrong, you are in with a chance. I have seen too many people try basic stuff and f
k it up because they just dont even understand what they are trying to fix, let alone work out how to do it.EDLT said:
busta said:
Whatever you do, don't do as Jackal has said and spend loads of money on tools you don't need and will never use. I did the whole headgasket change with a £100 socket set (bit of a luxury but I use it nearly every day) and a £30 tool kit someone got me for my 21st birthday. I borrowed a torque wrench for the head bolts.
Thats the way to do it. There are "starter" tool kits available with more than you'll need for DIY work for a little over £100 in machine mart, and that includes the tool box to keep them in. They won't be top quality tools but you don't need them unless you use them every day (and even then its a subject of some debate among mechanics).
Snap-on is good stuff & I made the mistake of walking on to a Snap-on van about five years ago & have since spent a small fortune paying weekly, I sometimes even nearly get the bill down to zero but just can't resist buying more stuff which is usually on special offer.
However I do enjoy having nice tools & it has turned into a sort of hobby of mine, but in all honestly I don't have anything that I couldn't of bought off either Sealey or Draper for a fraction of the price that would have of served me just as well.
my Dad bought himself an Epco trolley jack in 1973
it's jacked up all of his cars since then, taken engines out of VWs, has then jacked up all of mine and hopefully will be jacking up my kid's cars too (assumming cars are still legal/affordable in a few years) so I'm in the buy cheap pay twice camp. my clark strongarm jack is knackered after just 3 years.
But with tools comes storage. it wasn't until I got a house with a shed that I could really let go - until then it was a few plastic cases in the spare room cupboard.
I would agree with the "dive in" sentiment, but just remember - have a back up. especially if it's a sunday afternoon, and you really need to drive to an important meeting on Monday morning but the suspension arm just won't go back on.
whilst the ability to read haynes and use a spanner already seperates you from the vast majority of car owners, you'll find youself picking things up quick, like
- feeling if threads are damaged when putting bolts in / out
- how to replace bolts whilst lining up 3 components and brackets on the back of the engine, blind, lying on your back with your arm unnaturally twisted back
- working out all those fixes for rounded bolts, loose captive nuts, inaccessible fixings, seized on components that make a 30 minute job stretch all morning.
As people have already covered the usual stuff, my tips would be
- buy large boxes of disposable gloves. it keeps the worst of the grime off to stop those Monday morning meetings with back finger nails.
- get a cheap camping ground mat for lying on - £3 or so, which makes the pavement / drive a bit more comfortable
hth
Ian
it's jacked up all of his cars since then, taken engines out of VWs, has then jacked up all of mine and hopefully will be jacking up my kid's cars too (assumming cars are still legal/affordable in a few years) so I'm in the buy cheap pay twice camp. my clark strongarm jack is knackered after just 3 years.
But with tools comes storage. it wasn't until I got a house with a shed that I could really let go - until then it was a few plastic cases in the spare room cupboard.
I would agree with the "dive in" sentiment, but just remember - have a back up. especially if it's a sunday afternoon, and you really need to drive to an important meeting on Monday morning but the suspension arm just won't go back on.
whilst the ability to read haynes and use a spanner already seperates you from the vast majority of car owners, you'll find youself picking things up quick, like
- feeling if threads are damaged when putting bolts in / out
- how to replace bolts whilst lining up 3 components and brackets on the back of the engine, blind, lying on your back with your arm unnaturally twisted back
- working out all those fixes for rounded bolts, loose captive nuts, inaccessible fixings, seized on components that make a 30 minute job stretch all morning.
As people have already covered the usual stuff, my tips would be
- buy large boxes of disposable gloves. it keeps the worst of the grime off to stop those Monday morning meetings with back finger nails.
- get a cheap camping ground mat for lying on - £3 or so, which makes the pavement / drive a bit more comfortable
hth
Ian
jackal said:
busta said:
Whatever you do, don't do as Jackal has said and spend loads of money on tools you don't need and will never use. I did the whole headgasket change with a £100 socket set (bit of a luxury but I use it nearly every day) and a £30 tool kit someone got me for my 21st birthday. I borrowed a torque wrench for the head bolts.
No, you are wrong. And you are misrepresenting what I have said. I use every single tool I have bought, frequently too. If you can't afford proper tools that will still be serving you 10 or 20 years on then get another hobby. You should never bodge a job, its a car, a thing that moves often at high speed with living occupants inside.If you don't understand the value of good tools then clearly you;ve never broken any which in turn, means that you don't know enough about the subject really. All tools break. Crap tools break a lot more frequently and if you're unlucky, it will hurt lots when they break !
What you are describing is a very painful way of doing things. Beyond the simplest jobs you will just end up hating what you are doing and runinng into all sorts of problems
I don't know what cars you work on but i've found that most jobs you DO need specialised tools and good quality ones as well
The last thing you want is to mangle up say a cam saddle triple square bolt with a crappy driver from your local factors
all you'll do is end up having to TOW THE CAR to a proper dealer who can then use the real thing on it
same with say calipers for example
if you don't have a way to heat up your brake pipes or a proper flare nut spanner to get the damm things off then once again you'll be towing the car to a garage, calling up a mate to come round or phoning a mobile mech
there is NO point doing any of this unless you are going to do it properly
Sure, no need to spend 3k from the get go... i only did that because I was effectively replacing a whoel collection I hads already built up. But DO buy the correct things as and when you need them.
Edited by jackal on Sunday 6th June 01:02
I've got plenty of budget sockets which I've had an 8ft scaffolding pipe on the end of to undo stubborn tractor wheel nuts. Some can't handle it but plenty can. I'm not sure why you'd be afraid of breaking tools? The only ones that have ever done me any harm are allen keys that stick into your palm when they snap, but I now have a socket set with allen keys to go in the ratchet.
For an amateur, Silverline's more expensive tools (which are still pretty budget compared to some) are darned strong and come with the same lifetime warranty you get with the fancy stuff. None of the professionals I know use snap-on exclusively.
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