Advice on dealing with a dodgy car dealer
Discussion
Hi Guys,
I bought a 30 year old Ferrari a few months ago from a car dealer, who later I learned has a very dodgy reputation.
He told me it was a two owner car, when it turned out to be a 6 owner car.
I agreed to buy the car, pending a reasonable insurance quote. He told me that he had connections in the insurance industry, and could get me a deal. When he called back with a quote that was 1/4 the best quote I could find, I agreed to go ahead and pay a deposit.
He showed me the car which was not in amazing shape, needed some paint work etc, which he said he would get done, it also needed new carpets and a full service, as he told me it had been in storage for five years. I agreed to buy it once all of that work was done.
After waiting months, I turned up to collect it. The paint had been done (not to a great standard) The interior work was not done, and after arguing with him he agreed to knock the cost of that work off the price of the car.
On my drive home, the car overheated in a huge puff of smoke, I called him up, but he would not come to the phone, so then I had the car towed to a reputable independant mechanic. My mechanic told me that no work had been done to the car. The waterpump belt fan was not even fitted, there was a hole in the header tank, the fans on the radiator were not working, the handbrake cable was broken, the oil was old, the cam belts needed changing, and the tyres the dealer had fitted were remoulds, and totally unsafe.
I called the dealer and asked him to return my money, he refused to and told me he would pick up the repair bill. I had the car repaired, at a cost of £3,000, and now of course he is refusing to pay that.
I am not from this country, and so do not know much about how the laws work here.
Should I
A) take him to County court
B) Hire a lawyer to sue him
C) Do what he is suggesting and have this dispute mediated by the Retail Motor Industry Federation.
I worry from looking on the retail motor industry federations website that they are a body supported by members fees designed to defend members and not consumers.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I bought a 30 year old Ferrari a few months ago from a car dealer, who later I learned has a very dodgy reputation.
He told me it was a two owner car, when it turned out to be a 6 owner car.
I agreed to buy the car, pending a reasonable insurance quote. He told me that he had connections in the insurance industry, and could get me a deal. When he called back with a quote that was 1/4 the best quote I could find, I agreed to go ahead and pay a deposit.
He showed me the car which was not in amazing shape, needed some paint work etc, which he said he would get done, it also needed new carpets and a full service, as he told me it had been in storage for five years. I agreed to buy it once all of that work was done.
After waiting months, I turned up to collect it. The paint had been done (not to a great standard) The interior work was not done, and after arguing with him he agreed to knock the cost of that work off the price of the car.
On my drive home, the car overheated in a huge puff of smoke, I called him up, but he would not come to the phone, so then I had the car towed to a reputable independant mechanic. My mechanic told me that no work had been done to the car. The waterpump belt fan was not even fitted, there was a hole in the header tank, the fans on the radiator were not working, the handbrake cable was broken, the oil was old, the cam belts needed changing, and the tyres the dealer had fitted were remoulds, and totally unsafe.
I called the dealer and asked him to return my money, he refused to and told me he would pick up the repair bill. I had the car repaired, at a cost of £3,000, and now of course he is refusing to pay that.
I am not from this country, and so do not know much about how the laws work here.
Should I
A) take him to County court
B) Hire a lawyer to sue him
C) Do what he is suggesting and have this dispute mediated by the Retail Motor Industry Federation.
I worry from looking on the retail motor industry federations website that they are a body supported by members fees designed to defend members and not consumers.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Unfortunately I am unable to edit the above post, but I should explain that on the day I turned up to collect my car, he claimed to have just called around for an insurance quote for me, but could not remember who gave him that good price, and suggested that I just call AON Insurance. Of course their quote was significantly higher.
Google "Trading Standards" and then find the office nearest to where you purchased the car. Explain your situation to them and see what advice they offer you.
This will only work if the guy is a trader. If he claims he sold you the car as a "private" sale you are going to be on your own and have to follow the County Court trail.
Best of luck.
This will only work if the guy is a trader. If he claims he sold you the car as a "private" sale you are going to be on your own and have to follow the County Court trail.
Best of luck.
Unfortunately for you I suspect that a lot of responsibility for this is yours. Unless you had a contract specifically stating what work would be done as part of the purchase price the car is effectively sold as seen. Sorting out insurance is your responsibility and without wanting to sound too critical you really should have made some phone calls of your own to determine whether you can afford to run the car.
A 30 year old Ferrari, what is it?
A 30 year old Ferrari, what is it?
Edited by Red&WhiteMonkey on Wednesday 28th July 09:50
Sorry to hear your tale, but I don't think I would have taken a dealer's word on an insurance quote
It will all come down to what he agreed with you, did you get anything in writing? Did you supply any estimates of what needed doing before you began the work.
You could sue in the "small claims" (county) court as it is below the limit, however I fear this may be one you have to chalk up to experience.
The dealer sounds well iffy, and has probably been down this road many times before.
It will all come down to what he agreed with you, did you get anything in writing? Did you supply any estimates of what needed doing before you began the work.
You could sue in the "small claims" (county) court as it is below the limit, however I fear this may be one you have to chalk up to experience.
The dealer sounds well iffy, and has probably been down this road many times before.
Edited by mercfunder on Wednesday 28th July 09:49
I am able to afford to run the car, but the car was not of merchantable quality. He also lied about the number of prior owners, and claimed to have done work on the car which was not done.
He is a dealer (Used Cars), unfortunately I did not google him in advance of doing a deal, otherwise I would have known to stay away, as there are many similar stories online. I get the feeling that he has plenty of experience in being sued, as I have spoken to a number of people on the Ferrari Chat website who have similar or worse experiences with him.
Does anyone have experience with the Retail Motor Industry Federation? Is it better just taking him to small claims court.
I was fooled because it appeared that he ran a very respectable business, with a large inventory of very expensive cars like e types, a ferrari 275 etc. He claimed to have been in business for 35 years, and told me that every car he sold had a 2 year warranty.
By the time I worked out he was a crook, he was holding a significant deposit, which he refused to return. I only learned that it was a six owner car when the log book arrived in the post two weeks ago.
My girlfriend was with me at the dealership as a witness to all conversations, and I have recorded most of my phone conversations with him.
He is a dealer (Used Cars), unfortunately I did not google him in advance of doing a deal, otherwise I would have known to stay away, as there are many similar stories online. I get the feeling that he has plenty of experience in being sued, as I have spoken to a number of people on the Ferrari Chat website who have similar or worse experiences with him.
Does anyone have experience with the Retail Motor Industry Federation? Is it better just taking him to small claims court.
I was fooled because it appeared that he ran a very respectable business, with a large inventory of very expensive cars like e types, a ferrari 275 etc. He claimed to have been in business for 35 years, and told me that every car he sold had a 2 year warranty.
By the time I worked out he was a crook, he was holding a significant deposit, which he refused to return. I only learned that it was a six owner car when the log book arrived in the post two weeks ago.
My girlfriend was with me at the dealership as a witness to all conversations, and I have recorded most of my phone conversations with him.
You could try going to court but I suspect you'll come across as naïve. You’ll get nowhere with the insurance issue, it is not the responsibility of a car dealer to sort out car insurance for you.
As for the car, there is a certain level of responsibility to satisfy yourself that you’re happy with something you agree to buy it. If I was buying a car, or anything of equivalent value, I would want to see the relevant paperwork before agreeing to anything. Did you run any sort of HPI check (even 30 year old cars can have outstanding finance or be recorded stolen) and get a professional mechanic to check over the car to establish exactly what you are taking on? Given that the car was not concours standard did you not find it strange you were being told a 30 year old car had only had two owners? It’s worth bearing in mind that you’ll have to satisfy the court that you made appropriate investigations, and it sounds that perhaps you didn’t.
I don’t want to sound overly critical but I think you may have to put this one down to experience, the cost of going to court could easily outweigh the outcome.
As for the car, there is a certain level of responsibility to satisfy yourself that you’re happy with something you agree to buy it. If I was buying a car, or anything of equivalent value, I would want to see the relevant paperwork before agreeing to anything. Did you run any sort of HPI check (even 30 year old cars can have outstanding finance or be recorded stolen) and get a professional mechanic to check over the car to establish exactly what you are taking on? Given that the car was not concours standard did you not find it strange you were being told a 30 year old car had only had two owners? It’s worth bearing in mind that you’ll have to satisfy the court that you made appropriate investigations, and it sounds that perhaps you didn’t.
I don’t want to sound overly critical but I think you may have to put this one down to experience, the cost of going to court could easily outweigh the outcome.
Why did you place a deposit without seeing all the paperwork first>
At a minimum I would want to see the V5C and service history prior to handing over my hard earned.
Also on the order form did you list the work to be done?
If you didn't make him aware that you were taping your phone calls, they are probably inadmissible.
At a minimum I would want to see the V5C and service history prior to handing over my hard earned.
Also on the order form did you list the work to be done?
If you didn't make him aware that you were taping your phone calls, they are probably inadmissible.
Edited by mercfunder on Wednesday 28th July 10:28
What do you have in writing as to things he has told you, do you have any emails, invoices stating the number of owners and work agreed? without this I would say you are effectively up St creek without a paddle, Esp as you have had work completed on the car, this will have invalided any warranty. Sorry to be all doom and gllom, but better to tell it straight.
He's a dealer which means you don't have to "....put this down to experience...". Oh, the joys of internet experts 
(me included).
I would suggest you speak to the Citizens Advice Bureau. They'll want to see all documentation. Save yourself the time you'll waste here reading conflicting advice and contact them now.
Alternatively don't and spend the next couple of days being told how it's your fault, his fault, your fault, his fault interspersed with the usual (boring) so-called witty sayings.
(me included). I would suggest you speak to the Citizens Advice Bureau. They'll want to see all documentation. Save yourself the time you'll waste here reading conflicting advice and contact them now.
Alternatively don't and spend the next couple of days being told how it's your fault, his fault, your fault, his fault interspersed with the usual (boring) so-called witty sayings.
From what I understand after some googling
When you buy as a consumer from a motor trader, your legal rights under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 cannot be taken away or reduced. An example of an attempt to do so is a notice such as ‘sold as seen’. Such phrases are meaningless and cannot alter your rights. A warranty or guarantee can only be given in addition to your legal rights, not instead of them. You can take legal action under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 for up to six years after the date of the contract, but it is unrealistic to consider legal action for defects on used cars – especially older vehicles – once you have had them in use for a reasonable length of time.
For the car which he caimed to have serviced, including the crucial cam belt service on a Ferrari to break down on the drive home, the cause being amongst other things a missing belt, I would think that I have a case. The car was not fit for its purpose.
I did push him quite hard, and he clamed, and actually still claims to have done a full service.
When you buy as a consumer from a motor trader, your legal rights under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 cannot be taken away or reduced. An example of an attempt to do so is a notice such as ‘sold as seen’. Such phrases are meaningless and cannot alter your rights. A warranty or guarantee can only be given in addition to your legal rights, not instead of them. You can take legal action under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 for up to six years after the date of the contract, but it is unrealistic to consider legal action for defects on used cars – especially older vehicles – once you have had them in use for a reasonable length of time.
For the car which he caimed to have serviced, including the crucial cam belt service on a Ferrari to break down on the drive home, the cause being amongst other things a missing belt, I would think that I have a case. The car was not fit for its purpose.
I did push him quite hard, and he clamed, and actually still claims to have done a full service.
A few questions:
Did you do a HPI or equivalent check?
Did you have a qualified mechanic give it the once over and give you a detailed report?
Did you investigate the likely insurance cost prior to placing a deposit?
Did you get a written agreement stating what work would be done on the car prior to hand over?
You mentioned a two year warranty, what paperwork have you got for this?
What flavour of Ferrari is it?
Did you do a HPI or equivalent check?
Did you have a qualified mechanic give it the once over and give you a detailed report?
Did you investigate the likely insurance cost prior to placing a deposit?
Did you get a written agreement stating what work would be done on the car prior to hand over?
You mentioned a two year warranty, what paperwork have you got for this?
What flavour of Ferrari is it?
Edited by Red&WhiteMonkey on Wednesday 28th July 10:54
RedWhiteMonkey said:
A few questions:
Did you have a qualified mechanic give the once over and give you a detailed report?
This!Did you have a qualified mechanic give the once over and give you a detailed report?
I'm a bit handy with the spanners but I'd still get an acknowledged expert to give something of this caliber and vintage the once over! Don't know how much the purchase was for but surely £100 to someone for a bit of piece of mind should have been in order.
EDIT - quote fixed (they don't like '&')
Edited by Fastra on Wednesday 28th July 11:09
Flintstone said:
He's a dealer which means you don't have to "....put this down to experience...". Oh, the joys of internet experts (me included).
I would suggest you speak to the Citizens Advice Bureau. They'll want to see all documentation. Save yourself the time you'll waste here reading conflicting advice and contact them now.
Alternatively don't and spend the next couple of days being told how it's your fault, his fault, your fault, his fault interspersed with the usual (boring) so-called witty sayings.
Thanks, I am just off the phone with them, and it looks like they will be quite helpful. The woman told me they have a filing cabinet filled with complaints about this dealership (me included). I would suggest you speak to the Citizens Advice Bureau. They'll want to see all documentation. Save yourself the time you'll waste here reading conflicting advice and contact them now.
Alternatively don't and spend the next couple of days being told how it's your fault, his fault, your fault, his fault interspersed with the usual (boring) so-called witty sayings.
She has suggested that I send him a letter using a template from their website, and should he not respond within ten days she will help me take further action.
[quote=Red&WhiteMonkey]A few questions:
Did you do a HPI or equivalent check?
Did you have a qualified mechanic give it the once over and give you a detailed report?
Did you investigate the likely insurance cost prior to placing a deposit?
Did you get a written agreement stating what work would be done on the car prior to hand over?
You mentioned a two year warranty, what paperwork have you got for this?
What flavour of Ferrari is it?
[/quote]
I did have a check done to see if it was stolen, or if there was any outstanding finance. That came back clear.
I did not have someone check it out, as when I looked at it, it did need work, but I agreed to buy it after the work was completed. The paperwork just says, coach work, interior work and a full service.
It was a 24k mile car, and I think a full service would imply that the car would be able to drive more than 5 miles without melting down, and that things like the handbrake cable would be installed.
Did you do a HPI or equivalent check?
Did you have a qualified mechanic give it the once over and give you a detailed report?
Did you investigate the likely insurance cost prior to placing a deposit?
Did you get a written agreement stating what work would be done on the car prior to hand over?
You mentioned a two year warranty, what paperwork have you got for this?
What flavour of Ferrari is it?
Edited by Red&WhiteMonkey on Wednesday 28th July 10:54
[/quote]
I did have a check done to see if it was stolen, or if there was any outstanding finance. That came back clear.
I did not have someone check it out, as when I looked at it, it did need work, but I agreed to buy it after the work was completed. The paperwork just says, coach work, interior work and a full service.
It was a 24k mile car, and I think a full service would imply that the car would be able to drive more than 5 miles without melting down, and that things like the handbrake cable would be installed.
81Ferrari said:
The woman told me they have a filing cabinet filled with complaints about this dealership
Yet still he carries on trading, so they ain't exactly scaring him are they?When the car broke down on the way home, why did you not have it recovered back to the dealer and reject it unless all the repairs were done?
Gassing Station | General Gassing [Archive] | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff