Owners Clubs - A Rant
Discussion
I sometimes think the best thing you can do is stay away from owners club.
Especially the internet based one's.
I've been in a few, with cars and bikes and they always seem to dwell on the negative aspects of ownership.
Take my BMW motorcycle for instance.
If I'd been on their forum before buying mine, I'd have steered well clear, but as it is I've had four years of trouble free ownership.
A case in point is the Toyota MR2 owners club.
If you go on their site, you'll see a lot written about a design flaw with a part called the "pre-cat" which sits in the exhaust manifold.
According to the club, these break down and ceramic particles get sucked back into the bores causing total engine failure.
Scary stuff.
I registered on the forum and started to ask questions abou this, and it quickly became apparent to me, that there was no real proof.
So I asked for it.
After all, unless you can back up claims with evidence, then a theory remains just that, a theory.
OK in this case it's a very plausible one, but at the end of the day, still a theory.
There is of course an issue with early models in that there was a piston design flaw that Toyota acknowledged and extended the warranty on affected cars to 7 years.
The club however, have added another dimension to this by saying that the precats are also a problem.
I asked for evidence of this and was immediately treated as though I was a holocaust denier.
It went something like this.
Forum - Precats will destroy your engine
Me - Really, how do you know this
Forum - we just do
Me - Do you have any evidence / links I can study
Forum - Our members tell us
Me - Really, OK then so how have these members come to this conclusion
Surely they must have documented their engine re-builds and taken
photo's of the broken down pre cats and the ceramic particles they
picked out of the piston bores.
Forum - How dare you cast doubt on us - we are the club and we know these
things.
Me - But I've spoken to several mechanics, one of whome was a Toyota
mechanic for 25 years and he's never heard of this problem
Forum - Your mechanics know nothing, we are the club and know much more
than them.
Me - OK then, so please provide evidence - is that an unreasonable
thing to ask for
At which point the thread was deleted.
I am well aware of how a few individuals within these owners clubs, seek to appoint themselves as authorities above all others, and will shout down anyone who dares question them.
Paranoia and chinese whispers amongst these people, quickly become accepted wisdom with no basis in fact at all.
It's worth remembering that these people are not qualified engineers or even mechanics, even though they try to give the impression they are.
As I have found out, very often they have no hard evidence to back up their claims, and when asked to do so, respond by ganging up and pushing you into a corner for daring to question them.
What saddens me more, is seeing new members becoming scared and hanging onto their every word, giving them even more of a sense of the authority they so desperately crave.
I've seen it a thousand times before, and am kicking myself for not following my own principles, by staying away from paranoid self serving arrogant owners club officials who do very little other than spoil the experience of ownership for everyone they come into contact with.
Especially the internet based one's.
I've been in a few, with cars and bikes and they always seem to dwell on the negative aspects of ownership.
Take my BMW motorcycle for instance.
If I'd been on their forum before buying mine, I'd have steered well clear, but as it is I've had four years of trouble free ownership.
A case in point is the Toyota MR2 owners club.
If you go on their site, you'll see a lot written about a design flaw with a part called the "pre-cat" which sits in the exhaust manifold.
According to the club, these break down and ceramic particles get sucked back into the bores causing total engine failure.
Scary stuff.
I registered on the forum and started to ask questions abou this, and it quickly became apparent to me, that there was no real proof.
So I asked for it.
After all, unless you can back up claims with evidence, then a theory remains just that, a theory.
OK in this case it's a very plausible one, but at the end of the day, still a theory.
There is of course an issue with early models in that there was a piston design flaw that Toyota acknowledged and extended the warranty on affected cars to 7 years.
The club however, have added another dimension to this by saying that the precats are also a problem.
I asked for evidence of this and was immediately treated as though I was a holocaust denier.
It went something like this.
Forum - Precats will destroy your engine
Me - Really, how do you know this
Forum - we just do
Me - Do you have any evidence / links I can study
Forum - Our members tell us
Me - Really, OK then so how have these members come to this conclusion
Surely they must have documented their engine re-builds and taken
photo's of the broken down pre cats and the ceramic particles they
picked out of the piston bores.
Forum - How dare you cast doubt on us - we are the club and we know these
things.
Me - But I've spoken to several mechanics, one of whome was a Toyota
mechanic for 25 years and he's never heard of this problem
Forum - Your mechanics know nothing, we are the club and know much more
than them.
Me - OK then, so please provide evidence - is that an unreasonable
thing to ask for
At which point the thread was deleted.
I am well aware of how a few individuals within these owners clubs, seek to appoint themselves as authorities above all others, and will shout down anyone who dares question them.
Paranoia and chinese whispers amongst these people, quickly become accepted wisdom with no basis in fact at all.
It's worth remembering that these people are not qualified engineers or even mechanics, even though they try to give the impression they are.
As I have found out, very often they have no hard evidence to back up their claims, and when asked to do so, respond by ganging up and pushing you into a corner for daring to question them.
What saddens me more, is seeing new members becoming scared and hanging onto their every word, giving them even more of a sense of the authority they so desperately crave.
I've seen it a thousand times before, and am kicking myself for not following my own principles, by staying away from paranoid self serving arrogant owners club officials who do very little other than spoil the experience of ownership for everyone they come into contact with.
Edited by londonbill on Monday 9th August 04:48
There's quite a big negative streak running through you, isn't there?
Owners' clubs have their place, I find them a goldmine of specialised information you won't get on a multi-brand site like this one. I've found Puma People and the Renaultsport / Cliosport forums particularly knowledgeable and welcoming, not full of bulls
tters or people serving their own ends.
Owners' clubs have their place, I find them a goldmine of specialised information you won't get on a multi-brand site like this one. I've found Puma People and the Renaultsport / Cliosport forums particularly knowledgeable and welcoming, not full of bulls
tters or people serving their own ends. im sure there is a lot you can learn about human psychology by looking at how we behave on forums. PH can be used as an example. In some cases its not too different from any building site ive ever been on: Dont disagree with the general consensus on something, you'll never live it down, dont ever make a dumb mistake, you'll never live it down (ambiwlans), general iconic ramblings (MX-5) etc etc etc
likewise you get the 'pack culture' coming into play by those who perceive themselves as some sort of authority (whether because they are indeed authority, have enough contributions to become authority, or whose association with current authority, such as agreeing with the general rules and views of the site, allow themselves to be consider themselves authority). Any criticism to the pack is questionsed sub-consciencely as a threat and your threat is evaluated. Most of the time youre given chance to back down, but if you dont youre ostracised, for the good of the pack.
IM sure most of the above is complete bks, just my personal view and is not meant as offend anyone. As for the MR2 owners, you've picked quite possibly the worst owners club ive ever had the displeaseure to sometime visit. Scoobynet used to be like that. Maybe its the demographic that owns the car, but only to some extent, since other 'non-elite' car brand clubs are great places to be involved in and some 'elite' car brand clubs are just full of tossers with even more complexes.
Feel free to rip it to peices but be gentle
Right, 5am, out to warm up the car
likewise you get the 'pack culture' coming into play by those who perceive themselves as some sort of authority (whether because they are indeed authority, have enough contributions to become authority, or whose association with current authority, such as agreeing with the general rules and views of the site, allow themselves to be consider themselves authority). Any criticism to the pack is questionsed sub-consciencely as a threat and your threat is evaluated. Most of the time youre given chance to back down, but if you dont youre ostracised, for the good of the pack.
IM sure most of the above is complete b
ks, just my personal view and is not meant as offend anyone. As for the MR2 owners, you've picked quite possibly the worst owners club ive ever had the displeaseure to sometime visit. Scoobynet used to be like that. Maybe its the demographic that owns the car, but only to some extent, since other 'non-elite' car brand clubs are great places to be involved in and some 'elite' car brand clubs are just full of tossers with even more complexes.Feel free to rip it to peices but be gentle
Right, 5am, out to warm up the car Daniel1 said:
Feel free to rip it to peices but be gentle Right, 5am, out to warm up the car
Nope. Right, 5am, out to warm up the car I feel you are exactly right.
For example, on the MR2 club site there is a thread entitled "which oil should I use"
It's about 6 pages long, and by the time you've been through it all, you're none the wiser.
One minute you're thinking, I'd better use fully synthetic then, and by the next page you're thinking, Oh, I'd better not because my engine'll explode.
One member got shot down in flames for saying that you should use Toyota's recommendation.
The club elite shouted that down, stating more or less that Toyota don't know what they're talking about.
That's a classic example of the arrogance that exists within owners clubs.
They believe you should take their unqualified advice, rather than the manufacturer that devoted millions into the cars research and development.
Edited by londonbill on Sunday 8th August 05:44
londonbill said:
..For example, on the MR2 club site there is a thread entitled "which oil should I use"
It's about 6 pages long, and by the time you've been through it all, you're none the wiser.
One minute you're thinking, I'd better use fully synthetic then, and by the next page you're thinking, Oh, I'd better not because my engine'll explode.
That's just one example of the confusion and lack of knowledge that exists within many owners clubs
Actually I reckon that's a good example of what happens on most internet forums. Users express opinions as fact. Verification is non existent and the urban myth becomes internet knowledge.It's about 6 pages long, and by the time you've been through it all, you're none the wiser.
One minute you're thinking, I'd better use fully synthetic then, and by the next page you're thinking, Oh, I'd better not because my engine'll explode.
That's just one example of the confusion and lack of knowledge that exists within many owners clubs
I really don't think it is worse with owners clubs, it's just that the limited focus concentrates the rubbish.
Oddly enough, the specialist forum for the kit I built: www.teamgtm.com Is remarkably free of bull, but it maybe something to do with the fact that the forum access is restricted to members only.
I'm signed up to a few, but have had a few bad experiences with them.
The worst was a few weeks ago. I won't mention details, but I had a customer come in with a Gearbox fault on his car (I rebuild Gearboxes, don't ya know?). He came in, explained the problem, and without even test driving the car, I knew the problem as it was common as muck on this particular car. I then test drive the car to confirm my diagnosis (as well as other tests) and then do him a quote. He then takes this quote with him, to have a think about it.
He comes back the next day. "Yeah erm. This club I'm with told me it could be this, and that, then also this, and maybe that. They also said your wrong about what you said and that it is DEFINITELY this..." etc. etc. I try to convince him that I am 100% certain with my diagnosis, and that I guarantee the cars Gearbox fault will be rectified when I'm done with it. Nevertheless, he is adamant that this "club" is right, and tells me to fit all these parts they suggested. £££'s later, as I said, this never fixed the problem.
He eventually gives in, telling me to do the job I originally quoted. Sure enough, 3 days later, the car is all done and is in A1 condition. He comes in, head down in shame and pays. Then a week later, one of my customers points me in the direction to a thread he has made on his bumboy club slagging me off saying I ripped him off by saying all those (un-needed) parts needed fitting! Seems like some people cannot admit when they are wrong...
The worst was a few weeks ago. I won't mention details, but I had a customer come in with a Gearbox fault on his car (I rebuild Gearboxes, don't ya know?). He came in, explained the problem, and without even test driving the car, I knew the problem as it was common as muck on this particular car. I then test drive the car to confirm my diagnosis (as well as other tests) and then do him a quote. He then takes this quote with him, to have a think about it.
He comes back the next day. "Yeah erm. This club I'm with told me it could be this, and that, then also this, and maybe that. They also said your wrong about what you said and that it is DEFINITELY this..." etc. etc. I try to convince him that I am 100% certain with my diagnosis, and that I guarantee the cars Gearbox fault will be rectified when I'm done with it. Nevertheless, he is adamant that this "club" is right, and tells me to fit all these parts they suggested. £££'s later, as I said, this never fixed the problem.
He eventually gives in, telling me to do the job I originally quoted. Sure enough, 3 days later, the car is all done and is in A1 condition. He comes in, head down in shame and pays. Then a week later, one of my customers points me in the direction to a thread he has made on his bumboy club slagging me off saying I ripped him off by saying all those (un-needed) parts needed fitting! Seems like some people cannot admit when they are wrong...
Spot on with this. I belong to a club and there was one individual who knew nothing when he started but asked lots of questions. After a year or so he started answering other peoples questions with answers he had picked up to his questions. He was suddenly elevated in his mind to "expert" and would advise on anything and everything. When he was advising on braking issues I stepped in on one thread and pointed out the error and danger of his advise, but no, the fact I an a time served maechanic memeber of Mimi have been an advisor to the DOT meant nothing to this guy, he was a keyboard mechanic which appears to trump all else.
You soon learn to by pass the thread and email direct the questioner. That way you do not get the gathered keyboard clan against you but can help those who need help
You soon learn to by pass the thread and email direct the questioner. That way you do not get the gathered keyboard clan against you but can help those who need help
An owners' club that I'm a member has saved me a load of time and cash. By definition, they are run by passionate people, which can lead to tantrums, and even that club fragmented into two separate clubs, subsequently to re-unite.
But, broadly speeking, they are a good thing and democratise information that pre-internet, would have been harder if not impossible to come by.
But, broadly speeking, they are a good thing and democratise information that pre-internet, would have been harder if not impossible to come by.
^ Yup, that, everyone who has been there any length of time is an expert in their own marque, good for those seeking advice..
Like a non motoring forum I visit, everyone except me appears to be an expert and you are not allowed to have a different view, and if you post anything that is not asking advice it is likely ignored, I have stopped visiting and find the info out elsewhere
Like a non motoring forum I visit, everyone except me appears to be an expert and you are not allowed to have a different view, and if you post anything that is not asking advice it is likely ignored, I have stopped visiting and find the info out elsewhere
Edited by missdiane on Sunday 8th August 08:42
As a technician & mot tester for many years it can get very annoying when the customers come into the garage telling you there is a fault because 'it says so on the owners club' also the hammering that all Mot testers often get also gets my back up on a regular basis 
The rsowners club went through a stage a few years ago where it was like this but it seems to have 'grown up' a bit now, vxr online 
i think tbh its to do with the age of the people on there mr2's are firmly in 'shed' territory now so this may be why its like this??
As for the pre cat getting sucked into the engine this is bollacks afiak ive worked on various mr2's normally aspirated & turbo & have never come across this. The turbo ones do suffer imho with cats failing but it results in either the cat blocking the exhaust & a loss of power or bits of molten ceramic being blown out the back of the car
Ive seen various issues with them including melted pistons & big end failures & also turbo blades shattering which may explain a reason for ceramic in a damaged engine?? but never found bits of cat in the engine on an mr2 or any toyota that shares the engines.
If its the turbo one they are suggesting suffers from this does it suck the bits back past the turbo as well
The rsowners club went through a stage a few years ago where it was like this but it seems to have 'grown up' a bit now, vxr online i think tbh its to do with the age of the people on there mr2's are firmly in 'shed' territory now so this may be why its like this?? As for the pre cat getting sucked into the engine this is bollacks afiak ive worked on various mr2's normally aspirated & turbo & have never come across this. The turbo ones do suffer imho with cats failing but it results in either the cat blocking the exhaust & a loss of power or bits of molten ceramic being blown out the back of the car
Ive seen various issues with them including melted pistons & big end failures & also turbo blades shattering which may explain a reason for ceramic in a damaged engine?? but never found bits of cat in the engine on an mr2 or any toyota that shares the engines.
If its the turbo one they are suggesting suffers from this does it suck the bits back past the turbo as well
Often the aggressor or self styled authority on forums is hiding a secret - yes that’s right they are usually pathetic little weeds with no confidence and no life. Said aggressors often have post counts that run into the thousands and probably spend all their sad little life researching topics in order to gain knowledge without experience in readiness for the next confrontation (virtual of course) or challenge to their authority.
Of course in real life they would not say boo to a dead goose let alone look you in the eye and address you with the tone of arrogance and dismissal that they would/do on a forum where they can hide behind their high resoloution widescreen monitor.
OP – I don’t think your problem or frustration lies with car clubs or infact the concept behind them – it’s more the pathetic insects that can ruin them when they join up and become a member.
Of course in real life they would not say boo to a dead goose let alone look you in the eye and address you with the tone of arrogance and dismissal that they would/do on a forum where they can hide behind their high resoloution widescreen monitor.
OP – I don’t think your problem or frustration lies with car clubs or infact the concept behind them – it’s more the pathetic insects that can ruin them when they join up and become a member.
neiljohnson said:
mr2's are firmly in 'shed' territory now so this may be why its like this??
I think so, I was a member from about 2002 - 2009, from 2007 the people visiting the forum were getting noticeably younger, arrogant and idiotic. I logged on one day last year and all the new post I read made me annoyed - so I decided then to send a few pm's to the few remaining old crowd of decent people to say good bye and I've never logged on since.Sadly when cars become cheap, sub £3k they tend to become owned by people who cannot afford anymore, this is obviously linked to salary which in turn is linked to the education and mentality of the owner.
Herman Toothrot said:
neiljohnson said:
mr2's are firmly in 'shed' territory now so this may be why its like this??
I think so, I was a member from about 2002 - 2009, from 2007 the people visiting the forum were getting noticeably younger, arrogant and idiotic. I logged on one day last year and all the new post I read made me annoyed - so I decided then to send a few pm's to the few remaining old crowd of decent people to say good bye and I've never logged on since.Sadly when cars become cheap, sub £3k they tend to become owned by people who cannot afford anymore, this is obviously linked to salary which in turn is linked to the education and mentality of the owner.
Edited by neiljohnson on Sunday 8th August 09:26
Herman Toothrot said:
neiljohnson said:
mr2's are firmly in 'shed' territory now so this may be why its like this??
I think so, I was a member from about 2002 - 2009, from 2007 the people visiting the forum were getting noticeably younger, arrogant and idiotic. I logged on one day last year and all the new post I read made me annoyed - so I decided then to send a few pm's to the few remaining old crowd of decent people to say good bye and I've never logged on since.Sadly when cars become cheap, sub £3k they tend to become owned by people who cannot afford anymore, this is obviously linked to salary which in turn is linked to the education and mentality of the owner.
I've been on a variety of owners forums, and it isn't just the younger owners or people 'wiv no munny' that are like this.
But I've left any owners forums that I have associated with, especially the DC2 forum. If you dare argue with the 'established' when it comes to 'tuning' or engine mods, then you're villified.
Doesn't matter that I've got quite a bit of knowledge and experience from my own car. People claim things and then the drones like to suck up to authority and join in. There are even expert engine builders who build race engines for a living, been on there and broken all the conventional crap they spout, yet it still gets spread.
A positive for owners forums though, they are a goldmine for parts.
Basically the whole of the internet is like a pub (in my mind 
), unfortunately whereas in a pub you can wander away from those you don't want to talk to, on the internet they are still there spouting rubbish and it is harder to ignore.
The tendency on some sites for no criticism of cars posted doesn't help as you tend to have a bland succession of "looks wicked m8" posts for some bodykitted monstrosity.
Deals on parts are a bonus though.
), unfortunately whereas in a pub you can wander away from those you don't want to talk to, on the internet they are still there spouting rubbish and it is harder to ignore.The tendency on some sites for no criticism of cars posted doesn't help as you tend to have a bland succession of "looks wicked m8" posts for some bodykitted monstrosity.
Deals on parts are a bonus though
.internet owners clubs can be a god send for parts if you're trying to maintain a rare old car, at sensible prices. Euro part wreckers here are like afghan tribal raiders and will rob you blind on parts prices given half a chance, especially if what you need is hard to get your hands on locally.
Its through them that i've found a set of front discs for my alpina, i was looking at having to pay 800 AUD each to get some fabricated. Instead i found a guy in germany that will have a set delivereed for less than 600 clams.
Its through them that i've found a set of front discs for my alpina, i was looking at having to pay 800 AUD each to get some fabricated. Instead i found a guy in germany that will have a set delivereed for less than 600 clams.
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