Discussion
I sort of get the point of the IAM and am all for anything that improves driving standards and would imagine that IAM drivers are much better than average, but why is it, all the IAM members I have met tend to be self righteous road captains who drive crap cars like Freelanders and Chrysler Neons and dont exactly fill me with confidence as a passenger ?
Based on a sample size of five, driven by two of them, one nearly crashed during a particularly sanctimonious diatribe about the idiocy and danger of modifying cars from standard.
Have I met an unrepresentative sample ?
Based on a sample size of five, driven by two of them, one nearly crashed during a particularly sanctimonious diatribe about the idiocy and danger of modifying cars from standard.
Have I met an unrepresentative sample ?
How do you know when a car is driven by AIM drivers.
I'm guessing you notice the badge when you saw the bad driving. Did you notice all the badges when you saw some good or anonymous driving? Probably not as good driving is often anonymous driving anyway.
Personally I have seen (as have many of us!) some bad driving over the years, can't say I look to see if there are AIM badges on the cars.
There will always be good and bad drivers. AIM do a test but subsequently they may end up crap (a bit like the normal driving test!) and maybe re-testing to keep your AIM membership is the way to go.
I have met one idiot from the AIM who seems to think you can't be a good driver and not be an AIM member!
I won't bother correcting it but I know I can't spell IAM
I'm guessing you notice the badge when you saw the bad driving. Did you notice all the badges when you saw some good or anonymous driving? Probably not as good driving is often anonymous driving anyway.
Personally I have seen (as have many of us!) some bad driving over the years, can't say I look to see if there are AIM badges on the cars.
There will always be good and bad drivers. AIM do a test but subsequently they may end up crap (a bit like the normal driving test!) and maybe re-testing to keep your AIM membership is the way to go.
I have met one idiot from the AIM who seems to think you can't be a good driver and not be an AIM member!
I won't bother correcting it but I know I can't spell IAM
Edited by Dracoro on Friday 24th September 12:21
One was a guy from work (Neon), one was a driving day in the new Discovery at the time, as a filler they sent us out with some AIM drivers (Freelander, his own), the other three have been in conversation.
I want to get a different impression than the one I have of Daily Main reading, driving gloved self important middle aged blokes, I qualify myself apart from the Daily Mail bit
I want to get a different impression than the one I have of Daily Main reading, driving gloved self important middle aged blokes, I qualify myself apart from the Daily Mail bit
TonyHetherington said:
I was an IAM observer, and am still an IAM member.
I'm 29, have had an Elise, a supercharged Exige and currently in a V8 Audi estate. I have a racing licence, and should be doing a season of Club100 karting next year.
I can tell you, they're not all like that
I'm 29, have had an Elise, a supercharged Exige and currently in a V8 Audi estate. I have a racing licence, and should be doing a season of Club100 karting next year.
I can tell you, they're not all like that
I'm 32 and spend my days being paid to drive the best sports cars in the country. I'm also an IAM Qualified Observer and am shortly to take my Senior Observers test.
We're not all the same and your sample of two is pretty unrepresentative.
It does vary.
I know some cracking IAM drivers - possible beacuse the two in question are HPC Gold also.
My dad, a Volvo driving 72 year old, will still teach the youngsters a thing or two - he's also IAM (+ a current senior observer, which now have to meet a pretty high standard as set by IAM HQ).
Unfortunately though, I think that that the average IAM member is probably not as good as they should be. Partly because of no re-testing, and partly because I persoannly believe the IAM pass level is too low. Yes, it is a 'good' standard compared to not doing anything, but, still too low.
The IAM pass is about the same level as the RoSPA bronze whereas I think it should be around the RoSPA silver level - but that would put it out of reach of many I believe.
Martin
I know some cracking IAM drivers - possible beacuse the two in question are HPC Gold also.
My dad, a Volvo driving 72 year old, will still teach the youngsters a thing or two - he's also IAM (+ a current senior observer, which now have to meet a pretty high standard as set by IAM HQ).
Unfortunately though, I think that that the average IAM member is probably not as good as they should be. Partly because of no re-testing, and partly because I persoannly believe the IAM pass level is too low. Yes, it is a 'good' standard compared to not doing anything, but, still too low.
The IAM pass is about the same level as the RoSPA bronze whereas I think it should be around the RoSPA silver level - but that would put it out of reach of many I believe.
Martin
markmullen said:
I'm also an IAM Qualified Observer .
[M&S voice]Not just any IAM Qualified Observer, but Scarboroughs Advanced Driving Observer of the Year 2009
[/M&S voice]
Of course there will be exceptions, but my experience echoes that of the OP. I signed up for the IAM a few years ago, but I did not appreciate the condecending 'holier than thou' attitude of the vast majority of the observers I went out with.
I used to be a member (test 1989) however the whole "bodywarmer with car patches (think SpudGun off "Bottom")"/string back driving gloves/Farah slacks type of person in there really put me off and I stopped observing in 1990. The straw that broke the camels back was when one of the committee members (who was a driving instructor) resigned in tears 
because he'd lightly crashed his car on ice.
Oh - and they used to go on about other "normal drivers" - and they did the hi-viz jacket on the parcel shelf thing. Grrrr.
because he'd lightly crashed his car on ice.Oh - and they used to go on about other "normal drivers" - and they did the hi-viz jacket on the parcel shelf thing. Grrrr.
I can agree with much of the above. Most of the IAM members (and traffic officers) that I've met have a passing interest in cars like most blokes have, and have jumped through the hoops needed to get their qualification, without going the extra mile to understand car dynamics properly, or sat down and thought about road safety indepedently and intelligently, and sadly are probably less likely to do this, having already been "indoctrinated" and made to feel like the IAM is all there is to driving. That doesn't mean that all IAM members are like that, but certainly the vast majority that I've met have been.
The crap cars thing I can level with I pass an IAM member's house every day on the way to work; he's got a big trailer with IAM gubbins in it (presumably to set up at country shows etc), and drives some ridiculous tall soft roader thing like a Rav4, which incidentally he frequently parks on the pavement... (unless that's his wife or son doing that, in which case I apologise if he's reading this!).
As for their driving skills, that's always really puzzled me. I'm aware of the IAM syllabus and have read roadcraft, and as such I'm at a loss to explain why most of the IAM guys I've passengered with (with the exception of traffic officers and practising observers) have driven too close to the car in front, blitzed round blind corners far too fast, and never indicate properly. If I listed the drivers I feel safe with, the percentage of IAM members wouldn't be much higher than through chance alone.
I suppose it's a bit like photography or guitar playing - a lot of guys want to learn and get all the kit at some point in their life, but a very small minority ever take it seriously enough to fully understand it and get somewhere with it and actually get much good at it. The people I know who really are good photographers are all art students - having a DSLR with a few lenses and understanding the theory does not make anyone a good photographer.
It's also like the swots at school that get straight As. Many of them will get an A in a subject they don't truly understand. I've seen this at Uni, where I think nearly everyone in my class got straight As, but some people could only jump through the hoops to pass exams, and very few actually understood their subjects properly. My first employer had a gruelling technical interview that they said was there specifically to weed out the truly scientific types from the speccy exam passers.
So, to summarise, in my experience so far in life, being an IAM memeber alone does not make someone a good driver in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that good drivers cannot be IAM members. Like the OP, I support the IAM's motives 100%, but I've never felt inclined to join up, no matter how seriously I take road safety.
The crap cars thing I can level with
I pass an IAM member's house every day on the way to work; he's got a big trailer with IAM gubbins in it (presumably to set up at country shows etc), and drives some ridiculous tall soft roader thing like a Rav4, which incidentally he frequently parks on the pavement... (unless that's his wife or son doing that, in which case I apologise if he's reading this!).As for their driving skills, that's always really puzzled me. I'm aware of the IAM syllabus and have read roadcraft, and as such I'm at a loss to explain why most of the IAM guys I've passengered with (with the exception of traffic officers and practising observers) have driven too close to the car in front, blitzed round blind corners far too fast, and never indicate properly. If I listed the drivers I feel safe with, the percentage of IAM members wouldn't be much higher than through chance alone.
I suppose it's a bit like photography or guitar playing - a lot of guys want to learn and get all the kit at some point in their life, but a very small minority ever take it seriously enough to fully understand it and get somewhere with it and actually get much good at it. The people I know who really are good photographers are all art students - having a DSLR with a few lenses and understanding the theory does not make anyone a good photographer.
It's also like the swots at school that get straight As. Many of them will get an A in a subject they don't truly understand. I've seen this at Uni, where I think nearly everyone in my class got straight As, but some people could only jump through the hoops to pass exams, and very few actually understood their subjects properly. My first employer had a gruelling technical interview that they said was there specifically to weed out the truly scientific types from the speccy exam passers.
So, to summarise, in my experience so far in life, being an IAM memeber alone does not make someone a good driver in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that good drivers cannot be IAM members. Like the OP, I support the IAM's motives 100%, but I've never felt inclined to join up, no matter how seriously I take road safety.
The IAM is a fine organisation with excellent, public-spirited goals. It exists to promote road safety through driver education.
Then there are the members. Who come from all walks of life, have a wide spread of opinion on a host of matters. They even disagree about driving! You are as likely to meet petrolhead IAMers as you are to meet ones whose main thought about cars is fuel economy. It's a broad church. Some members are ace. Some are tossers. Just like PHers!
And their driving skills vary too. Having an IAM pass on your CV means you drove to an advanced standard for one and half hours, once. Same as having a driving licence means you drove to DSA standards for forty minutes or so - prior to never reading the Highway Code again!
Me? I Observe so I have to keep my skills up. To help with that I am also a ROADAR member and get re-tested every three years. So far I have got a Gold rating three times - happy with that as it means I am not letting the standards slip. So does that mean I am a good driver? Yes it probably does. Does it mean I never make mistakes and cock-ups? Demonstrably it does not.
Do my mistakes negate in any way the value of the IAM and ROADAR? No.
Then there are the members. Who come from all walks of life, have a wide spread of opinion on a host of matters. They even disagree about driving! You are as likely to meet petrolhead IAMers as you are to meet ones whose main thought about cars is fuel economy. It's a broad church. Some members are ace. Some are tossers. Just like PHers!
And their driving skills vary too. Having an IAM pass on your CV means you drove to an advanced standard for one and half hours, once. Same as having a driving licence means you drove to DSA standards for forty minutes or so - prior to never reading the Highway Code again!
Me? I Observe so I have to keep my skills up. To help with that I am also a ROADAR member and get re-tested every three years. So far I have got a Gold rating three times - happy with that as it means I am not letting the standards slip. So does that mean I am a good driver? Yes it probably does. Does it mean I never make mistakes and cock-ups? Demonstrably it does not.
Do my mistakes negate in any way the value of the IAM and ROADAR? No.
edo said:
I'm Spartacus! (and have an IAM licence too).
No I'm Sparticus!I kind of agree with the OP, from the IAM members I have met.
It used to give you a discount on insurance, but its negligable compared to the costs.
Its a kind of self regulated gentlemens club and i just cant get hard about it, but each to their own
I joined the IAM after passing my police response driving course, having been taught and tested by some excellent drivers who most certainly understood vehicle dynamics as much as roadcraft.
I do not think I am an excellent driver. I make mistakes like everyone. However, I try to be conscientious, try my best to be safe and put into practise the roadcraft I have learned. As much as anything it taught me to analyse my driving and even now if I do something wrong I think about how I could stop myself from repeating the same mistake. To me that advanced tuition makes it worth it and I was taught lots of stuff I wouldn't otherwise know.
I do not think I am an excellent driver. I make mistakes like everyone. However, I try to be conscientious, try my best to be safe and put into practise the roadcraft I have learned. As much as anything it taught me to analyse my driving and even now if I do something wrong I think about how I could stop myself from repeating the same mistake. To me that advanced tuition makes it worth it and I was taught lots of stuff I wouldn't otherwise know.
I did the IAM course and passed the test in 2003/4. I like to think I took the best bits of it and they are part of my driving habits now, although I am sure I wouldn't pass the test if I took it tomorrow.
I agree that I think the qualifications lose their worth if they are not renewed, and I have considered RoSPA/RideDrive.
When I did my observed drives I met a cross section of IAMers. Most were miserable old gits with chips on their shoulders who were more interested in fuel economy than motoring. I felt that my apparent youth didn't help, although I was late 20s, and felt quite patronised.
One guy stood out - he had an MX-5 funnily enough, and was really enthusiastic. Great guy! I went out to watch another guy who clearly had something to prove about making safe progress - flying down country lanes at speeds well in excess of what I felt sensible with 2 wheels in the gutter did not make for a relaxing drive, and I felt sorry for the paintwork of the nearside of his C-class after all those brambles...
The examiner was a good chap too.
After I passed I looked into becoming an observer as I thought this would help me maintain my skills, and being a teacher I thought I could communicate them a hell of a lot better than some of the sanctimonious old farts I went out with! Anyway, I tried, but a lack of email addresses and continual answerphone messages on my local group's answerphone meant that I lost patience and interest.
Also made the mistake of going to a local meeting once, hoping for some interesting and stimulating debate. Boy was I disappointed. Be a lot more worthwhile spending a couple of hours reading the Advanced Driving section on here!
I must admit I'm jealous of the local groups who have people like Don and Mark Mullen as observers, I am sure I would be much more active in IAM circles if they were loca lto me. As it is I barely keep up with the subs and left the local group a long time ago (with their magazine containing a joke page FFS!)
I agree that I think the qualifications lose their worth if they are not renewed, and I have considered RoSPA/RideDrive.
When I did my observed drives I met a cross section of IAMers. Most were miserable old gits with chips on their shoulders who were more interested in fuel economy than motoring. I felt that my apparent youth didn't help, although I was late 20s, and felt quite patronised.
One guy stood out - he had an MX-5 funnily enough, and was really enthusiastic. Great guy! I went out to watch another guy who clearly had something to prove about making safe progress - flying down country lanes at speeds well in excess of what I felt sensible with 2 wheels in the gutter did not make for a relaxing drive, and I felt sorry for the paintwork of the nearside of his C-class after all those brambles...
The examiner was a good chap too.
After I passed I looked into becoming an observer as I thought this would help me maintain my skills, and being a teacher I thought I could communicate them a hell of a lot better than some of the sanctimonious old farts I went out with! Anyway, I tried, but a lack of email addresses and continual answerphone messages on my local group's answerphone meant that I lost patience and interest.
Also made the mistake of going to a local meeting once, hoping for some interesting and stimulating debate. Boy was I disappointed. Be a lot more worthwhile spending a couple of hours reading the Advanced Driving section on here!
I must admit I'm jealous of the local groups who have people like Don and Mark Mullen as observers, I am sure I would be much more active in IAM circles if they were loca lto me. As it is I barely keep up with the subs and left the local group a long time ago (with their magazine containing a joke page FFS!)
Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Friday 24th September 15:29
Don said:
The IAM is a fine organisation with excellent, public-spirited goals. It exists to promote road safety through driver education.
Then there are the members. Who come from all walks of life, have a wide spread of opinion on a host of matters. They even disagree about driving! You are as likely to meet petrolhead IAMers as you are to meet ones whose main thought about cars is fuel economy. It's a broad church. Some members are ace. Some are tossers. Just like PHers!
And their driving skills vary too. Having an IAM pass on your CV means you drove to an advanced standard for one and half hours, once. Same as having a driving licence means you drove to DSA standards for forty minutes or so - prior to never reading the Highway Code again!
Me? I Observe so I have to keep my skills up. To help with that I am also a ROADAR member and get re-tested every three years. So far I have got a Gold rating three times - happy with that as it means I am not letting the standards slip. So does that mean I am a good driver? Yes it probably does. Does it mean I never make mistakes and cock-ups? Demonstrably it does not.
Do my mistakes negate in any way the value of the IAM and ROADAR? No.
Then there are the members. Who come from all walks of life, have a wide spread of opinion on a host of matters. They even disagree about driving! You are as likely to meet petrolhead IAMers as you are to meet ones whose main thought about cars is fuel economy. It's a broad church. Some members are ace. Some are tossers. Just like PHers!
And their driving skills vary too. Having an IAM pass on your CV means you drove to an advanced standard for one and half hours, once. Same as having a driving licence means you drove to DSA standards for forty minutes or so - prior to never reading the Highway Code again!
Me? I Observe so I have to keep my skills up. To help with that I am also a ROADAR member and get re-tested every three years. So far I have got a Gold rating three times - happy with that as it means I am not letting the standards slip. So does that mean I am a good driver? Yes it probably does. Does it mean I never make mistakes and cock-ups? Demonstrably it does not.
Do my mistakes negate in any way the value of the IAM and ROADAR? No.
I think you're spot on here Don, there are a lot of members who don't seem too bothered - but on the other hand, there are plenty members who are just a nerdy about furthering their skills as I am
Part of the problem is that bad drivers get more press than good drivers. Whilst I make good progress, a main aim of my driving is that it is unobtrusive to those around me - I try to get there without making anyone else change course or speed. Apart from when I get it wrong.....!! Gassing Station | General Gassing [Archive] | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff