Autocars, Britains Best Drivers Car 2010
Discussion
I don’t normally read Autocar but picked this up this morning to read over a coffee.
Anyway the big shock is that the initial favorite the Ferrari 458 only came third behind the Noble M600 and the winner the Porsche GT3 RS.
What I find funny is the lengths that the Ferrari team took to try and bag the title. First off they bought two cars to the test, one specially set up for track work. And then got very upset when the 458 did not go fastest in the first tests and the testers complained of high speed under steer and snap over steer.
They then took it away and replaced the tires, mucked around with pressures etc and then insisted the car was tested again. Autocar apparently were initially reluctant to give them a second chance as it might look unfair, but they gave in. Only then did it set the fastest lap time.
But at the end of the test it still came third.
So what does this all mean? Is Ferrari getting paranoid about 458? It’s been beaten by a much cheaper Porsche and the immanent arrival of the Mclaren MP4 is set to rain on its parade. Can we read anything into their current actions?
I open the floor to more educated brains than my own.....
Anyway the big shock is that the initial favorite the Ferrari 458 only came third behind the Noble M600 and the winner the Porsche GT3 RS.
What I find funny is the lengths that the Ferrari team took to try and bag the title. First off they bought two cars to the test, one specially set up for track work. And then got very upset when the 458 did not go fastest in the first tests and the testers complained of high speed under steer and snap over steer.
They then took it away and replaced the tires, mucked around with pressures etc and then insisted the car was tested again. Autocar apparently were initially reluctant to give them a second chance as it might look unfair, but they gave in. Only then did it set the fastest lap time.
But at the end of the test it still came third.
So what does this all mean? Is Ferrari getting paranoid about 458? It’s been beaten by a much cheaper Porsche and the immanent arrival of the Mclaren MP4 is set to rain on its parade. Can we read anything into their current actions?
I open the floor to more educated brains than my own.....
I think "beaten" is too strong a word. Magazines have to find winners and losers, but the truth is more complicated than that; everyone has different criteria for buying a car, and the 458 is for crossing continents and everyday use, where the GT3 RS is for trackdays and Sunday morning blasts. I expect the GT3 RS does drive better than the 458, but it's a trackday car, whereas the 458 is an everyday car with all the comfort and trimmings. I expect the 458 Challenge Stradale will be a better match for the GT3 RS 
As for lap times, to me that's irrelevant from a road car, but nonetheless very interesting.
As for lap times, to me that's irrelevant from a road car, but nonetheless very interesting.Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 13th October 11:08
GT RS trackday car? Everywhere journalists say how good on the road it is, plus a very good ride it has. Ferrari is right to fear, Porsche is much better honed and involving road car, the best on earth I think. Ferrari has artifical steering, and relativelly vague handling(as seen on the Evo tracktest video). 458 looks great, has great engine, great grip, but that is by far not enough.
Streetrod said:
I don’t normally read Autocar but picked this up this morning to read over a coffee.
Anyway the big shock is that the initial favorite the Ferrari 458 only came third behind the Noble M600 and the winner the Porsche GT3 RS.
What I find funny is the lengths that the Ferrari team took to try and bag the title. First off they bought two cars to the test, one specially set up for track work. And then got very upset when the 458 did not go fastest in the first tests and the testers complained of high speed under steer and snap over steer.
They then took it away and replaced the tires, mucked around with pressures etc and then insisted the car was tested again. Autocar apparently were initially reluctant to give them a second chance as it might look unfair, but they gave in. Only then did it set the fastest lap time.
But at the end of the test it still came third.
So what does this all mean? Is Ferrari getting paranoid about 458? It’s been beaten by a much cheaper Porsche and the immanent arrival of the Mclaren MP4 is set to rain on its parade. Can we read anything into their current actions?
I open the floor to more educated brains than my own.....
Do not believe that they are 'current actions', Ferrari have been sending a full support crew and a Ferrari test driver with their cars to magazine for years.Anyway the big shock is that the initial favorite the Ferrari 458 only came third behind the Noble M600 and the winner the Porsche GT3 RS.
What I find funny is the lengths that the Ferrari team took to try and bag the title. First off they bought two cars to the test, one specially set up for track work. And then got very upset when the 458 did not go fastest in the first tests and the testers complained of high speed under steer and snap over steer.
They then took it away and replaced the tires, mucked around with pressures etc and then insisted the car was tested again. Autocar apparently were initially reluctant to give them a second chance as it might look unfair, but they gave in. Only then did it set the fastest lap time.
But at the end of the test it still came third.
So what does this all mean? Is Ferrari getting paranoid about 458? It’s been beaten by a much cheaper Porsche and the immanent arrival of the Mclaren MP4 is set to rain on its parade. Can we read anything into their current actions?
I open the floor to more educated brains than my own.....
Case in point, Luca Badoer on Top Gear in the 360CS back in 2004.
Edited by E30M3SE on Wednesday 13th October 11:21
hotmelt said:
GT RS trackday car? Everywhere journalists say how good on the road it is, plus a very good ride it has. Ferrari is right to fear, Porsche is much better honed and involving road car, the best on earth I think. Ferrari has artifical steering, and relativelly vague handling(as seen on the Evo tracktest video). 458 looks great, has great engine, great grip, but that is by far not enough.
I can't really comment any further without driving both cars, but so far as I've read and seen, I'd own a GT3 RS as a weekend/occasional car, and a 458 as an everyday practical car. Respectively they fill the roles my Elise and Z4 Coupé currently sit in. I did use the Elise as my only car for three years, but still, if comparing the Elise and Z4 Coupé it's going to come as no surprise that the Elise is the better driver's car, purely because it sacrifices everyday comfort to be that good. Similarly, the Z4C sacrifices driving credentials to be a good everyday car. I still see the 458 and GT3 RS as completely different genres of car.RobM77 said:
hotmelt said:
GT RS trackday car? Everywhere journalists say how good on the road it is, plus a very good ride it has. Ferrari is right to fear, Porsche is much better honed and involving road car, the best on earth I think. Ferrari has artifical steering, and relativelly vague handling(as seen on the Evo tracktest video). 458 looks great, has great engine, great grip, but that is by far not enough.
I can't really comment any further without driving both cars, but so far as I've read and seen, I'd own a GT3 RS as a weekend/occasional car, and a 458 as an everyday practical car. Respectively they fill the roles my Elise and Z4 Coupé currently sit in. I did use the Elise as my only car for three years, but still, if comparing the Elise and Z4 Coupé it's going to come as no surprise that the Elise is the better driver's car, purely because it sacrifices everyday comfort to be that good. Similarly, the Z4C sacrifices driving credentials to be a good everyday car. I still see the 458 and GT3 RS as completely different genres of car.It will be amusing to see what size team's Ferrari and McLaren send to the eventual Ferrari 458 v Mclaren MP4 -12C tests. Do we expect Mclaren to turn up mob handed or just leave the car and walk away?
Or would they be afraid to leave it with a bunch of curious Ferrari mechanics hanging around with a strangely large tool box at hand?
RobM77 said:
hotmelt said:
GT RS trackday car? Everywhere journalists say how good on the road it is, plus a very good ride it has. Ferrari is right to fear, Porsche is much better honed and involving road car, the best on earth I think. Ferrari has artifical steering, and relativelly vague handling(as seen on the Evo tracktest video). 458 looks great, has great engine, great grip, but that is by far not enough.
I can't really comment any further without driving both cars, but so far as I've read and seen, I'd own a GT3 RS as a weekend/occasional car, and a 458 as an everyday practical car. Respectively they fill the roles my Elise and Z4 Coupé currently sit in. I did use the Elise as my only car for three years, but still, if comparing the Elise and Z4 Coupé it's going to come as no surprise that the Elise is the better driver's car, purely because it sacrifices everyday comfort to be that good. Similarly, the Z4C sacrifices driving credentials to be a good everyday car. I still see the 458 and GT3 RS as completely different genres of car.hotmelt said:
RobM77 said:
hotmelt said:
GT RS trackday car? Everywhere journalists say how good on the road it is, plus a very good ride it has. Ferrari is right to fear, Porsche is much better honed and involving road car, the best on earth I think. Ferrari has artifical steering, and relativelly vague handling(as seen on the Evo tracktest video). 458 looks great, has great engine, great grip, but that is by far not enough.
I can't really comment any further without driving both cars, but so far as I've read and seen, I'd own a GT3 RS as a weekend/occasional car, and a 458 as an everyday practical car. Respectively they fill the roles my Elise and Z4 Coupé currently sit in. I did use the Elise as my only car for three years, but still, if comparing the Elise and Z4 Coupé it's going to come as no surprise that the Elise is the better driver's car, purely because it sacrifices everyday comfort to be that good. Similarly, the Z4C sacrifices driving credentials to be a good everyday car. I still see the 458 and GT3 RS as completely different genres of car.The everyday differences between the two cars probably go deeper than you suspect. What about the NVH levels for instance?
Again, as I stated earlier, I haven't driven either car so I can't really comment too deeply.
By the way, I'd hesitate to call Porsche's awful (imho) variable ratio rack as "better"!! I haven't driven the GT3 RS, but I've tried that rack on two Cayman Ss and took an instant disliking to it.
Didn't Car or Evo test the gt3 rs vs the 458 and conclude that if you had to go for a blast yo wold pick the gt3,to use everyday you would use the ferrari ? So autocar are not alone,and based on my drive of the normal gt3 you would be hard pressed to find a car where every single control is so brilliantly weighted (apart from the clutch which is just to heavy for everyday use I thought.)I haven't driven the 458 ,but the other ferraris I have driven always scared me a little bit as I found the steering quite numb,and over sharp.
franki68 said:
Didn't Car or Evo test the gt3 rs vs the 458 and conclude that if you had to go for a blast yo wold pick the gt3,to use everyday you would use the ferrari ? So autocar are not alone,and based on my drive of the normal gt3 you would be hard pressed to find a car where every single control is so brilliantly weighted (apart from the clutch which is just to heavy for everyday use I thought.)I haven't driven the 458 ,but the other ferraris I have driven always scared me a little bit as I found the steering quite numb,and over sharp.
I think it was Chris Harris at EVO who concluded that the GT3 RS was actually the better drivers car if not the fastest. So yes there does seem to be a bit of concensus on this issue from the mags at the moment. I suspect the development boys at Mclaren are rubbing their hands in glee at this moment. They better make sure the GT3 does not put them to shame though
E30M3SE said:
Streetrod said:
I don’t normally read Autocar but picked this up this morning to read over a coffee.
Anyway the big shock is that the initial favorite the Ferrari 458 only came third behind the Noble M600 and the winner the Porsche GT3 RS.
What I find funny is the lengths that the Ferrari team took to try and bag the title. First off they bought two cars to the test, one specially set up for track work. And then got very upset when the 458 did not go fastest in the first tests and the testers complained of high speed under steer and snap over steer.
They then took it away and replaced the tires, mucked around with pressures etc and then insisted the car was tested again. Autocar apparently were initially reluctant to give them a second chance as it might look unfair, but they gave in. Only then did it set the fastest lap time.
But at the end of the test it still came third.
So what does this all mean? Is Ferrari getting paranoid about 458? It’s been beaten by a much cheaper Porsche and the immanent arrival of the Mclaren MP4 is set to rain on its parade. Can we read anything into their current actions?
I open the floor to more educated brains than my own.....
Do not believe that they are 'current actions', Ferrari have been sending a full support crew and a Ferrari test driver with their cars to magazine for years.Anyway the big shock is that the initial favorite the Ferrari 458 only came third behind the Noble M600 and the winner the Porsche GT3 RS.
What I find funny is the lengths that the Ferrari team took to try and bag the title. First off they bought two cars to the test, one specially set up for track work. And then got very upset when the 458 did not go fastest in the first tests and the testers complained of high speed under steer and snap over steer.
They then took it away and replaced the tires, mucked around with pressures etc and then insisted the car was tested again. Autocar apparently were initially reluctant to give them a second chance as it might look unfair, but they gave in. Only then did it set the fastest lap time.
But at the end of the test it still came third.
So what does this all mean? Is Ferrari getting paranoid about 458? It’s been beaten by a much cheaper Porsche and the immanent arrival of the Mclaren MP4 is set to rain on its parade. Can we read anything into their current actions?
I open the floor to more educated brains than my own.....
Case in point, Luca Badoer on Top Gear in the 360CS back in 2004.
Edited by E30M3SE on Wednesday 13th October 11:21
Whenever Evo are doing some testing on one of their models they always turn up with a full crew and change tyres and setting throughout the tests.
Maybe all manufacturers do this but Ferrari's efforts always seem to get mentioned and I always think it is not reflective of real life and that the cars should be tested 'out the box' rather then specifically tweaked to that one environment.
On a related note, it's often annoyed me how manufacturers get "driver's car" confused with "low NVH", and seemingly ignore driver's car elements when making an everyday sports car. If (and I say if because I haven't driven it) the 458's (or 997C2S's) steering isn't as good as the GT3 RS, then why not? Steering feel does lot lower the NVH of a car and make it less livable. The only concession to everyday useability should be weight and rawness. Steering feel, pedal operation etc should not suffer; there's no reason for it.
Streetrod said:
franki68 said:
Didn't Car or Evo test the gt3 rs vs the 458 and conclude that if you had to go for a blast yo wold pick the gt3,to use everyday you would use the ferrari ? So autocar are not alone,and based on my drive of the normal gt3 you would be hard pressed to find a car where every single control is so brilliantly weighted (apart from the clutch which is just to heavy for everyday use I thought.)I haven't driven the 458 ,but the other ferraris I have driven always scared me a little bit as I found the steering quite numb,and over sharp.
I think it was Chris Harris at EVO who concluded that the GT3 RS was actually the better drivers car if not the fastest. So yes there does seem to be a bit of concensus on this issue from the mags at the moment. I suspect the development boys at Mclaren are rubbing their hands in glee at this moment. They better make sure the GT3 does not put them to shame though
RobM77 said:
hotmelt said:
RobM77 said:
hotmelt said:
GT RS trackday car? Everywhere journalists say how good on the road it is, plus a very good ride it has. Ferrari is right to fear, Porsche is much better honed and involving road car, the best on earth I think. Ferrari has artifical steering, and relativelly vague handling(as seen on the Evo tracktest video). 458 looks great, has great engine, great grip, but that is by far not enough.
I can't really comment any further without driving both cars, but so far as I've read and seen, I'd own a GT3 RS as a weekend/occasional car, and a 458 as an everyday practical car. Respectively they fill the roles my Elise and Z4 Coupé currently sit in. I did use the Elise as my only car for three years, but still, if comparing the Elise and Z4 Coupé it's going to come as no surprise that the Elise is the better driver's car, purely because it sacrifices everyday comfort to be that good. Similarly, the Z4C sacrifices driving credentials to be a good everyday car. I still see the 458 and GT3 RS as completely different genres of car.The everyday differences between the two cars probably go deeper than you suspect. What about the NVH levels for instance?
Again, as I stated earlier, I haven't driven either car so I can't really comment too deeply.
By the way, I'd hesitate to call Porsche's awful (imho) variable ratio rack as "better"!! I haven't driven the GT3 RS, but I've tried that rack on two Cayman Ss and took an instant disliking to it.
I own a GT3 and use it everyday. My car has a full leather interior and plenty of options so you can live with it day to day. Most RS versions have few options - weight is kept down usually, and with the cage it is not massively practical in my view. I wear a suit to work and have no problems with my GT3 every day, having to climb in and out over a roll cage would make life more difficult and comments in the car park would be interesting I expect. The GT3 is still 90% (maybe more) the same car as the RS, so I'd say if you want to compare an equivalent ferrari etc... to an everyday car, the GT3 would fit the bill and still drive to 95%+ that of the RS.
As nice as my GT3 is, and I love it, it's not the same event as a 458. I get plenty of positive comments from those people who know what the car is, but it's not on the same level as a Ferrari. You pay plenty extra for that privilege though!
Gassing Station | General Gassing [Archive] | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff