dispute with dealer over repair - help needed!

[Emma Ka]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could offer me some advice. I purchased a 2003 Ford Ka in September from a small dealership for £1100. When I purchased the car (which had just been MOTed), the battery light was coming on quite a bit which my partner queried and asked 'is there a problem with the alternator?'. We were told there wasn't and was probably just a loose connection. Fast forward a month and a half and my car breaks down. The AA tell me the alternator is dead. I have had this fixed (at my expense for £230) but have since researched my rights and it seems that under the sale of good act in such situations 'you may be entitled to ask for a repair or replacement. The fault must have been there when you bought the vehicle.' (info on the citizen's advice bureau website). I phoned my dealer and explained the situation, though I didn't mention I had had the car repaired yet as I wanted to see if he would offer to repair it. He said as there was no warranty there was nothing he could do. I mentioned the sale of goods act and the fact the fault was most probably already there (due to the battery light being on) and he said that wasn't necessarily the case. It was very civilised but we were both standing our ground so weren't able to resolve anything. My partner has said I should write to them and send the invoice for the repair explaining that if they don't refund (or at least part refund) the repair I will take legal action. Am I in the right or is the dealer? I am not able to post this in the speed, plod and the law section as I have not been a member long enough but if anyone could help/potentially repost this for me I would really appreciate it.

Cheers!
Emma

[MrPickle]

I think as an established trader he should be well aware of what a battery warning light means, and 9 times out of 10 it'll be a lose connection to the alternator or the alternator itself. For him to say the problem wasn't there when you bought the car sounds a bit iffy. He'd know full well what it means.
Stand your ground, send him a letter and push for full/part payment.

[R60EST]

I'm no expert but I'd imagine you have a slight case with the SOGA . If you had it written on the purchase receipt the battery light was on it would have backed up your case as the dealer will no doubt not remember . I'd wrtite the letter anyway , keep it polite , quote the sale of goods act as you've done here and also say you've been advised to take the matter up with trading standards but you hope that with the dealers cooperation it won't be necessary

It might not get you anywhere but you have nothing to lose by trying

[Emma Ka]

Thanks to you both for the advice, it's good to get some feedback before I got ahead and pursue the matter further. I will send a letter and see what happens. Unfortunately I don't have it on paper that the light was on when I bought it but I'll see what happens. Much appreciated!

[Efbe]

Emma Ka said:

Thanks to you both for the advice, it's good to get some feedback before I got ahead and pursue the matter further. I will send a letter and see what happens. Unfortunately I don't have it on paper that the light was on when I bought it but I'll see what happens. Much appreciated!

i don't think you need to have had that in writing.you buy a car from a dealer in the understanding that it works, so its actually better that you didn't have that in writing.

[H_Kan]

Just write a letter and don't mention the battery light, it's not relevant from a consumer rights point of view imo and isn't something which can be substantiated.

Just state what has gone wrong, explain why under SOGA this is not acceptable and state what you are seeking eg. refund of repair cost. Also enclose a copy of the invoice. At the 6 week stage of ownership, I would guess the onus to provide proof that YOU caused the alternator to fail rather then it having been on it's last legs at time of sale will fall to the garage owner.

Imo, he has probably thought being female, he'll be able to fob you off. It's not official, but I think 3 months is a reasonable warranty to expect. As a trade seller who has sold a car to the public, he cannot sell without warranty or as a trade sale. Therefore his saying there is no warranty is crap.

The only negative is that you went elsewhere for repair, so he may argue that he could have done the repair himself for cheaper and therefore you may have to settle for a partial refund.

[Emma Ka]

H_Kan said:

The only negative is that you went elsewhere for repair, so he may argue that he could have done the repair himself for cheaper and therefore you may have to settle for a partial refund.

Thanks Efbe and H Kan
Well when I initially phoned the dealer to tell him about the problem I didn't say I had had it repaired as I wanted to see if he would offer to do it himself (I assumed not as I live quite far away from the dealership). I told him that if he didn't offer to fix it I would have to get it repaired myself and send him the invoice and he said 'you do what you have to do'. My only concern now is that the date on the invoice is 2 days before I contacted him (as I had not initially realised I might be covered under the SOGA), so he could argue that he would have repaired it (even though he told me he wouldn't).Do you think that my omitting to mention I had already had it repaired when I contacted him could be an issue?

P.S. I think you're right about him assuming that as a female he could fob me off. He probably could have had my partner not told me to look at the SOGA ...

[SClarke]

Sale of goods says that it is up to the dealer to prove the fault was not already there rather than you having to prove it was, so having no proof of any lights or whatever makes no difference at all unless the dealer can prove the light was not on (which obviously he can't).

Bearing in mind the cost of the car you can probably only expect a contribution but the dealer certainly has a responsibility to do something.

Actually getting any money out of him may be more difficult now you have had the repair done.

Good luck.

[GKP]

I know the horse has bolted etc, but I have to question your decision to drive the car off the forecourt with the battery light on.

[rallycross]

its worth a try by now that you have paid for repairs without talking to the dealer first you will really strugle to get anywhere. Also a 2003 ka for £1100 was incredibly cheap a decent 2003 ka will sell for around £2000.

[Emma Ka]

GKP said:

I know the horse has bolted etc, but I have to question your decision to drive the car off the forecourt with the battery light on.

The dealer had told me it was not the alternator causing the battery light to come on (it wasn't on constantly, just coming on at regualr intervals) and I had read that some Kas can have minor loose connections that weren't necessarily and indication of a faulty alternator so I assumed it was that. I don't know a huge amount about cars and it looks like I've paid the price!

The Crack Fox said:

Technically (SOGA) you may be in the right, but 6 weeks on in a £1000 car ? Not very nice, but I can see why the seller is dragging his heels over a big bill on a banger. If you want a decent warranty in future, buy an aftermarket one, or get a new(er) car. Sorry for being blunt, good luck !

Fair point, but this is my first car and I was on a tight budget. Next time maybe!

[Frederick]

Don't you have a 3 month warranty by law on second hand cars bought from a registered motor trader anyway?? I'm not 100% sure so don't treat this as gospel but it's something I'm under the impression of.

If the light only came on at low engine speeds it's probably due to the commutator windings breaking down inside the alternator, in that at slow engine speed it isn't able to generate the required voltage to charge the battery - if it came on at higher engine speeds, it's probably the voltage regulator that was on its way out, potentially overcharging the battery.

[Efbe]

Emma Ka said:

GKP said:

I know the horse has bolted etc, but I have to question your decision to drive the car off the forecourt with the battery light on.

The dealer had told me it was not the alternator causing the battery light to come on (it wasn't on constantly, just coming on at regualr intervals) and I had read that some Kas can have minor loose connections that weren't necessarily and indication of a faulty alternator so I assumed it was that. I don't know a huge amount about cars and it looks like I've paid the price!

The Crack Fox said:

Technically (SOGA) you may be in the right, but 6 weeks on in a £1000 car ? Not very nice, but I can see why the seller is dragging his heels over a big bill on a banger. If you want a decent warranty in future, buy an aftermarket one, or get a new(er) car. Sorry for being blunt, good luck !

Fair point, but this is my first car and I was on a tight budget. Next time maybe!

different people have different ideas of what value is covered by the SOGA which i don't fully get.

You would expect a £5 phone charger to be covered as well, so I really dont see why cost has any factor in this.

The dealer has probably not recorded the date you contacted him anyhow, so I wouldn't worry about that.I'd just tell him that you wanted to get a third party to fix it to be certain the repairs are being done correctly and impartially if he asks

[Bill]

rallycross said:

its worth a try by now that you have paid for repairs without talking to the dealer first you will really strugle to get anywhere.

This. Technically you're in the right OP, but you should have given the dealer a chance to rectify the problem first.

[kentmotorcompany]

Because of the age and value of the car, I doubt you would have any real legal recourse.

Although because the fault was there when you bought it, and it has caused the car to break down (it is a serious enough fault to render the car unfit for purpose), I think a decent dealer should at least make a contribution, just from a moral point of view. However dealers that deal with these cheap cars, are often the ones with less morals than some.

As also mentioned, the fact you have had it fixed else where before talking to him does not help your case.

In this instance I would write to him, including a copy of the invoice (he may not notice the date, or remember exactly when you called), mention SoGA, and see if you can get anywhere.

I wouldn't bother following it up beyond this though, as I don't think you have a very strong case, also the amount of money you are seeking is so small, as not to be worth much more of your time. (just my humble opinion though)


As an aside, The Burden of Proof is with the dealer to prove the fault was not there when he sold it, if you are seeking a repair. However if you seeking a refund, the burden of proof is with the buyer.

[markcjd]

Frederick said:

Don't you have a 3 month warranty by law on second hand cars bought from a registered motor trader anyway?? I'm not 100% sure so don't treat this as gospel but it's something I'm under the impression of.

If the light only came on at low engine speeds it's probably due to the commutator windings breaking down inside the alternator, in that at slow engine speed it isn't able to generate the required voltage to charge the battery - if it came on at higher engine speeds, it's probably the voltage regulator that was on its way out, potentially overcharging the battery.

There is no obligation upon a trader to offer a warranty with any vehicle sold. It amazes me that so many traders do not offer a warranty as simple cover for 3 months can cost as little as £100 from a reputable underwriter.

What cannot be avoided is a traders obligations under the SOGA. Whilst in principle the OP may have a case I cannot see it going anywhere. At £1100 for an 03 Ka it was bought at a very good price. Any judgement under the act will take into consideration what is a "reasonable expectation" from a product. 6 weeks from sale on a car bought so cheaply is unlikely to win in court. Given the repair bill as a %age of the invoice a contribution from your dealer is probably a reasonable request. Did you give the dealer the opportunity to repair the fault after your car was recovered by the AA?

From my experience try to continue in the civilised manner and avoid threats of court action or lawyers other than as a last resort. B

[Frederick]

markcjd said:

Frederick said:

Don't you have a 3 month warranty by law on second hand cars bought from a registered motor trader anyway?? I'm not 100% sure so don't treat this as gospel but it's something I'm under the impression of.

There is no obligation upon a trader to offer a warranty with any vehicle sold. It amazes me that so many traders do not offer a warranty as simple cover for 3 months can cost as little as £100 from a reputable underwriter.

Oh, fair play then!!

[Bill]

Efbe said:

You would expect a £5 phone charger to be covered as well, so I really dont see why cost has any factor in this.

But not 7 years later when it's worth £1.

[H_Kan]

Emma Ka said:

H_Kan said:

The only negative is that you went elsewhere for repair, so he may argue that he could have done the repair himself for cheaper and therefore you may have to settle for a partial refund.

Thanks Efbe and H Kan
Well when I initially phoned the dealer to tell him about the problem I didn't say I had had it repaired as I wanted to see if he would offer to do it himself (I assumed not as I live quite far away from the dealership). I told him that if he didn't offer to fix it I would have to get it repaired myself and send him the invoice and he said 'you do what you have to do'. My only concern now is that the date on the invoice is 2 days before I contacted him (as I had not initially realised I might be covered under the SOGA), so he could argue that he would have repaired it (even though he told me he wouldn't).Do you think that my omitting to mention I had already had it repaired when I contacted him could be an issue?

P.S. I think you're right about him assuming that as a female he could fob me off. He probably could have had my partner not told me to look at the SOGA ...

I doubt he has all the dates of contact recorded, so don't give specifics, maybe state that you contacted in the week commencing xx/xx/xxxx rather then date itself.

Imo, an alternator failing, even on a 1k car is a serious fault. It's not some ancillary nicety like AC, it's a crucial part of the car.

[Efbe]

Bill said:

Efbe said:

You would expect a £5 phone charger to be covered as well, so I really dont see why cost has any factor in this.

But not 7 years later when it's worth £1.

if i bought a seven year old phone charger from a shop and it caught light a few weeks later due to being faulty, then yes it would be their fault.

if it stopped working after 6weeks, then on the principal i would return it for a refund.

so yes :P