Oversteer help.
Discussion
I'll admit to favouring RWD, but having a fairly powerful RWD GT thing and being subjected to the recently greasy road surfaces and having got the car veeeeerrrry slideways this evening from entering a fast moving DC from a 'T' junction has made me realise that I could do with some coaching on managing the mixture of RWD, LSD and slippy roads.
So, do any of you have any suggestions as to where I might go to procure such teachings and/or a safe place in which to practice such activities?
I'm usually in Surrey during the week or Fife at the weekends.
TIA
So, do any of you have any suggestions as to where I might go to procure such teachings and/or a safe place in which to practice such activities?
I'm usually in Surrey during the week or Fife at the weekends.
TIA
A few things Ill say
1. Get the car checked over, make sure all the bushes are in good order and the tyres are in good order and inflated correctly and that the LSD has been serviced according to how it should be. (Im assuming its the 300zx, its an old car now and theres a chance the LSD isnt in tip top condition) They are big heavy cars and any of these not being right can make handling far more tricky than it should be.
2. All skids are caused by going too fast. There is no exception to this. Look ahead, plan ahead, use throttle sparingly when its slippy and dont force yourself into a situation where you have to sink the boot.
3. Read up on oversteer, watch videos on oversteer, play computer games featuring oversteer. Thats how I learned to drive a car sideways, need practice but it got the basics into my head.(the drift bible video that can be found online is a good start but will make you think you are some kind of god at the wheel.)
4. No replacement for doing. So you are spot on about getting coaching or somewhere to practice, really once you get the feel for it things seem to not happen as fast but I dont advise practising on the streets, too many kerbs to go up. The police also take a dim view of doing donuts and powerslides in the middle of the night...apparently.
Dont know where you would go to but 300zxs are lovely cars and fairly sure footed so you shouldnt be worried about it stepping out (until you want it to).
1. Get the car checked over, make sure all the bushes are in good order and the tyres are in good order and inflated correctly and that the LSD has been serviced according to how it should be. (Im assuming its the 300zx, its an old car now and theres a chance the LSD isnt in tip top condition) They are big heavy cars and any of these not being right can make handling far more tricky than it should be.
2. All skids are caused by going too fast. There is no exception to this. Look ahead, plan ahead, use throttle sparingly when its slippy and dont force yourself into a situation where you have to sink the boot.
3. Read up on oversteer, watch videos on oversteer, play computer games featuring oversteer. Thats how I learned to drive a car sideways, need practice but it got the basics into my head.(the drift bible video that can be found online is a good start but will make you think you are some kind of god at the wheel.)
4. No replacement for doing. So you are spot on about getting coaching or somewhere to practice, really once you get the feel for it things seem to not happen as fast but I dont advise practising on the streets, too many kerbs to go up. The police also take a dim view of doing donuts and powerslides in the middle of the night...apparently.
Dont know where you would go to but 300zxs are lovely cars and fairly sure footed so you shouldnt be worried about it stepping out (until you want it to).
Two outstanding limit handling coaches are Don Palmer who uses Bruntingthorpe in Leicestershire and trades under his own name, and Andy Walsh who trains at North Weald near Harlow in Essex and trades as Car Limits. Andy did an excellent teaching DVD called Bending the Rules which he sells from his website.
A word of caution - training with either of these guys is expensive both in their fee and in the rubber burnt, and a single day won't get anywhere near making you an expert.
The first thing to learn is how not to get into an oversteer situation on the road - so I also recommend you to consider advanced road training.
A word of caution - training with either of these guys is expensive both in their fee and in the rubber burnt, and a single day won't get anywhere near making you an expert.
The first thing to learn is how not to get into an oversteer situation on the road - so I also recommend you to consider advanced road training.
Yes, get the rear geometry checked, not forgetting to load up the boot to simulate acceleration. It may be that a bush is decaying and so making things a tad unpredictable. How old are the dampers? It might be worth replacing them.
Failing that, all I can say is to only give it some hoof when all 4 wheels are pointing in the same direction and the rotational inertia has been damped out. Remember that Top Gear with Sir Stirling Moss giving Captain Slow a lesson? Only put your foot down when you are confident that you won't have to take it off.
Failing that, all I can say is to only give it some hoof when all 4 wheels are pointing in the same direction and the rotational inertia has been damped out. Remember that Top Gear with Sir Stirling Moss giving Captain Slow a lesson? Only put your foot down when you are confident that you won't have to take it off.
Getting your car checked out and inspecting the tyres is a good start.
You could then try getting booked on to a skidpan... http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&...
Or you could do a drift day... http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&biw=1184&b...
Really though the obvious answer is to not be in a situation where you are going to be accelerating hard and steering at the same time. A RWD drive car should be no more tricky to drive than any other car and is not something to be feared.
You could then try getting booked on to a skidpan... http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&...
Or you could do a drift day... http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&biw=1184&b...
Really though the obvious answer is to not be in a situation where you are going to be accelerating hard and steering at the same time. A RWD drive car should be no more tricky to drive than any other car and is not something to be feared.
Thanks for the replies, yes it is the Zed.
First of all, the geometry is spot on. I've had it checked and then double checked by a reputable specialist and the suspension/steering joints/bushes scrutinised and replaced as necessary with poly bushes where appropriate. My tyres, while not top of the range are fairly good quality and only a few months old.
I have been exposed to defensive/advanced driving training, (a bit of a brush up wouldn't go amiss mind you!), and I completely agree with the philosophy of not getting it out of shape in the first place. This is the practice I adopt.
To be fair, it's very difficult to get the car unstuck even in the wet when applying power it's just that when it does get out of line it makes me clench a bit and while of late I've not actually lost total control I feel the grace with which I manage the situation really needs attention.
I'm not after 'Drift King skillorz', I just want to be able to bolster my confidence to better deal with it if/when the combination of 300 rwd bhp and damp roads conspire against me.
First of all, the geometry is spot on. I've had it checked and then double checked by a reputable specialist and the suspension/steering joints/bushes scrutinised and replaced as necessary with poly bushes where appropriate. My tyres, while not top of the range are fairly good quality and only a few months old.
I have been exposed to defensive/advanced driving training, (a bit of a brush up wouldn't go amiss mind you!), and I completely agree with the philosophy of not getting it out of shape in the first place. This is the practice I adopt.
To be fair, it's very difficult to get the car unstuck even in the wet when applying power it's just that when it does get out of line it makes me clench a bit and while of late I've not actually lost total control I feel the grace with which I manage the situation really needs attention.
I'm not after 'Drift King skillorz', I just want to be able to bolster my confidence to better deal with it if/when the combination of 300 rwd bhp and damp roads conspire against me.
Big Rod said:
My tyres, while not top of the range are fairly good quality and only a few months old.
Depending on how many miles you have done on the tyres, you may still be getting rid of the mould release agent from the treads. This can make new tyres more slippy until its worn off.BrianMillar said:
Big Rod said:
My tyres, while not top of the range are fairly good quality and only a few months old.
Depending on how many miles you have done on the tyres, you may still be getting rid of the mould release agent from the treads. This can make new tyres more slippy until its worn off.For all the car is old, I'm very conscious of that to the point of being paranoid about it's mechanical condition and do keep on top of it. While it'll never win any concourse competitions, I'm satisfied the car's mechanically sound particularly where the chassis and associated components are concerned.
And while I enjoy enthusiastic driving, I generally keep it within the envelope of the raggedy edge which is probably why I'm not the most confident at dealing with the loss of traction at the back.
Edited by Big Rod on Wednesday 10th November 08:28
mattley said:
Big Rod said:
So, do any of you have any suggestions as to where I might go to procure such teachings and/or a safe place in which to practice such activities?
Same junction 2:00 AM, HTH
The only way to become comfortable with sliding is to practice, whether you do it on the road or not depends on how important your licence is.
You could book a day with Mazda on Track to really explore the limits of your car in a very safe environment. I did it a couple of weeks ago and learnt so much more about the car than I could have possibly learnt on a trackday.
Brilliantly organised too, and you don't have to drive a Mazda
That's actually my video on their homepage but I should stress I have absolutely no association with them.
Brilliantly organised too, and you don't have to drive a Mazda
That's actually my video on their homepage but I should stress I have absolutely no association with them.
Big Rod said:
I'm not after 'Drift King skillorz', I just want to be able to bolster my confidence to better deal with it if/when the combination of 300 rwd bhp and damp roads conspire against me.
That's exactly what a drift day can teach you. And on top of that you'll have s
tloads of fun. waremark said:
The first thing to learn is how not to get into an oversteer situation on the road - so I also recommend you to consider advanced road training.
I'd echo that. Knowing how to find (and stay below) the limits of grip is at least as important as knowing how to correct a slide once you're in it, and should probably be learned first or you'll never get around to it because you'll enjoy sliding around corners too much. 
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th November 09:13
doogz said:
I might be being a bit picky here, but from my interpretation of the OP, it wasn't really understeer as such, it was just wheelspin as he pulled away and turned a corner. I would say that's not caused by going too fast, as someone has stated, as he was going a few miles an hour perhaps?
Spot on!doogz said:
I wouldn't necessarily recommend an advanced driving course to deal with pulling out of a junction on a really greasy wet day.
Find your local car club, go along to their next autotest. Have a ball, and learn lots.
Without trying to sound like a hoodlum, ('cos I'm not!), it's being able to manage the sidestep gracefully with a 'dap of oppo' rather than bottling it, backing off the throttle and having the car embarrassingly lurch around.Find your local car club, go along to their next autotest. Have a ball, and learn lots.
Jayho said:
Could try putting a few sacks of tatties in the car to improve traction through weight!?!? :P
I can't really complain about the traction in all fairness. It really is very sure footed, so I guess because of that when it does let go it's quite snappy and does take me by surprise.I would recommend one of the 'introduction to drifting' days that MSV run at Oulton Park - its run on their 'rally' track which is glass/tarmac mix.
You get loads of tracktime (probably get in well over a 100 runs in a day) as you can just go around and then queue again (usually 3-4 cars in the queue and they have two different 'tracks'). As the surface is low-friction there is almost zero tyre wear and you can learn at lower speeds. once you build up confidence you can end up doing full-on 'against the lockstops at 70mph' slides on the courses.
It made a huge difference to my driving with a 'dab of oppo' as your learning to drift the car (keep the car sideways through a number of bends, rather than just oversteering around one) you really start to feel and learn the balance of the car and how the steering and throttle control the angle of the slide. You also learn to purposely unsettle the car into a corner (I always think proper 'sideways' should start before the apex - lift-off oversteer on entry, finished off with power oversteer on the exit - especially on hairpins :-) ) That can take a bit of practice/learning as it's the opposite to how you normally try to drive (normally, your aiming to keep the car settled for a corner) with drifting your jerking on the steering wheel and being agressive with the clutch (or cheating with the handbrake ;-) ) to start the slide on the entry to a corner.
At the start I was spinning quite a lot (despite my natual ability ;-) ) as the relationship between all the controls is a bit alien and sometimes counter-intuative.
As others have said, you need to experiance it enough so that it becomes 'instinctive'. For me, the most satisfing thing is to come out of a slide winding off the lock smoothly with no mini-tank slappers or lurching. You'll end up driving a car in the same way most people drive a go kart (as karts generally have so much caster that they counter steer for you) in that you naturally apply smooth counter steering and modulate the throttle when you feel the car 'step out'.
I dont think you can get that experiance/confidence safely on the road - a few days at a drifting or car control course, and then you can practice a bit on trackdays when your in a safer environment than on the road.
You get loads of tracktime (probably get in well over a 100 runs in a day) as you can just go around and then queue again (usually 3-4 cars in the queue and they have two different 'tracks'). As the surface is low-friction there is almost zero tyre wear and you can learn at lower speeds. once you build up confidence you can end up doing full-on 'against the lockstops at 70mph' slides on the courses.
It made a huge difference to my driving with a 'dab of oppo' as your learning to drift the car (keep the car sideways through a number of bends, rather than just oversteering around one) you really start to feel and learn the balance of the car and how the steering and throttle control the angle of the slide. You also learn to purposely unsettle the car into a corner (I always think proper 'sideways' should start before the apex - lift-off oversteer on entry, finished off with power oversteer on the exit - especially on hairpins :-) ) That can take a bit of practice/learning as it's the opposite to how you normally try to drive (normally, your aiming to keep the car settled for a corner) with drifting your jerking on the steering wheel and being agressive with the clutch (or cheating with the handbrake ;-) ) to start the slide on the entry to a corner.
At the start I was spinning quite a lot (despite my natual ability ;-) ) as the relationship between all the controls is a bit alien and sometimes counter-intuative.
As others have said, you need to experiance it enough so that it becomes 'instinctive'. For me, the most satisfing thing is to come out of a slide winding off the lock smoothly with no mini-tank slappers or lurching. You'll end up driving a car in the same way most people drive a go kart (as karts generally have so much caster that they counter steer for you) in that you naturally apply smooth counter steering and modulate the throttle when you feel the car 'step out'.
I dont think you can get that experiance/confidence safely on the road - a few days at a drifting or car control course, and then you can practice a bit on trackdays when your in a safer environment than on the road.
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