Problems with a private dealer!
Discussion
Hello all,
After checking out the PH Forum for the best part of a year without actually contributing anything, I've bitten the bullet and created an account!
For my first post, I have a question that I was going to post in SP&L, however, I am not yet trustworthy enough to post in there yet (despite being a BiB myself!)
Here goes: On 1st September this year I purchased a used car from a private dealer (I'm not going to state what kind of car, or what dealer, just in case they peruse this site too!) The car was sold with a warranty of x months.
Five minutes after collecting my new pride and joy, I noticed that the SatNav screen in the middle of the dash was flickering every couple of minutes, barely noticeable at first - but it became a real annoyance. Furthermore, my nearside door mirror, which is supposed to tilt down when the car is put in reverse, and then tilt back up in drive or park - appeared to have a mind of its own and self adjusted at random on the move.
I informed the dealer of these problems more or less straight away and the car went back to him so he could have a look at it. I was informed that he fitted a new screen, however, when driving home it was flickering worse than it was before. As far as the mirror is concerned, the dealer said that he didn't know what I was talking about as the mirror was behaving itself impeccably (sods law I think you call that...)
The dealer then stopped returning my calls until I eventually had to go back and confront him. After a period of discussion, he agreed to book it in to the main dealer to have whatever it needed done.
Today, the car went to the main dealer. When I went to pick the car up they stated that they had performed a software update on the vehicle and that it had since stopped flickering. They further stated that their mechanic had checked the problem with the mirror and couldn't find a fault code or offer any suggestions as to why it had developed a mind of its own. He therefore decided to do nothing with it as he couldn't figure out what was wrong and put the car back out as ready for collection.
When I arrived to pick the car up, they stated that it probably needed a new mirror but couldn't be sure and hadn't fitted one.
On the way home - the SatNav started flickering again.
I phoned the original dealer stating that the car had been in to the main dealer today as agreed, however, we were back to square one with the SatNav and they hadn't replaced the mirror. Essentially, the original dealer has lost all interest and doesn't want to know.
SO. Does anyone have any advice as to where I can go from here? I'm not too good at this Civil Law malarkey and would appreciate advice from someone who knows a bit more than I.
I do know that Section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 creates an offence for any person to supply a vehicle that is in such a condition that its use on a road would involve a danger of injury to any person. A question for the other BiB's - would you hold a defective nearside door mirror and highly distracting flickering SatNav screen as being a contravention of Section 40A RTA? That's the route I'd like to angle at.
Also what about the main dealer releasing the car back to me as having been sorted when it's not? Where do I stand with that. Also, if anyone agrees that a faulty electrical mirror tilting away may involve a danger of injury to others - where do I stand in relation to the main dealer releasing the car to me without either fixing it or informing me that it may be illegal.
Sorry, this post has gone on a bit now but my heads minced with it and I'd like to know where people think I should stand.
(MODS: You may want to move this to SP&L, just a humble suggestion!)
Cheers
UR
After checking out the PH Forum for the best part of a year without actually contributing anything, I've bitten the bullet and created an account!
For my first post, I have a question that I was going to post in SP&L, however, I am not yet trustworthy enough to post in there yet (despite being a BiB myself!)
Here goes: On 1st September this year I purchased a used car from a private dealer (I'm not going to state what kind of car, or what dealer, just in case they peruse this site too!) The car was sold with a warranty of x months.
Five minutes after collecting my new pride and joy, I noticed that the SatNav screen in the middle of the dash was flickering every couple of minutes, barely noticeable at first - but it became a real annoyance. Furthermore, my nearside door mirror, which is supposed to tilt down when the car is put in reverse, and then tilt back up in drive or park - appeared to have a mind of its own and self adjusted at random on the move.
I informed the dealer of these problems more or less straight away and the car went back to him so he could have a look at it. I was informed that he fitted a new screen, however, when driving home it was flickering worse than it was before. As far as the mirror is concerned, the dealer said that he didn't know what I was talking about as the mirror was behaving itself impeccably (sods law I think you call that...)
The dealer then stopped returning my calls until I eventually had to go back and confront him. After a period of discussion, he agreed to book it in to the main dealer to have whatever it needed done.
Today, the car went to the main dealer. When I went to pick the car up they stated that they had performed a software update on the vehicle and that it had since stopped flickering. They further stated that their mechanic had checked the problem with the mirror and couldn't find a fault code or offer any suggestions as to why it had developed a mind of its own. He therefore decided to do nothing with it as he couldn't figure out what was wrong and put the car back out as ready for collection.
When I arrived to pick the car up, they stated that it probably needed a new mirror but couldn't be sure and hadn't fitted one.
On the way home - the SatNav started flickering again.
I phoned the original dealer stating that the car had been in to the main dealer today as agreed, however, we were back to square one with the SatNav and they hadn't replaced the mirror. Essentially, the original dealer has lost all interest and doesn't want to know.
SO. Does anyone have any advice as to where I can go from here? I'm not too good at this Civil Law malarkey and would appreciate advice from someone who knows a bit more than I.
I do know that Section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 creates an offence for any person to supply a vehicle that is in such a condition that its use on a road would involve a danger of injury to any person. A question for the other BiB's - would you hold a defective nearside door mirror and highly distracting flickering SatNav screen as being a contravention of Section 40A RTA? That's the route I'd like to angle at.
Also what about the main dealer releasing the car back to me as having been sorted when it's not? Where do I stand with that. Also, if anyone agrees that a faulty electrical mirror tilting away may involve a danger of injury to others - where do I stand in relation to the main dealer releasing the car to me without either fixing it or informing me that it may be illegal.
Sorry, this post has gone on a bit now but my heads minced with it and I'd like to know where people think I should stand.
(MODS: You may want to move this to SP&L, just a humble suggestion!)
Cheers
UR
First of all, the words "private dealer" are confusing. There are only two possible types of transaction involving a car, either
1. Private sale - no warranty (unless specifically written)
2. Trade sale - Sale of Goods Act imposes some basic warranty but not a great deal so long as the car is basically working (more may be specifically written). The extent of the basic warranty depends on the age of the car and price paid.
Yours sounds like a trade sale with an additional written warranty. But what EXACTLY does that warranty say? How old was the car and what was the price?
In any situation like this it's one thing to have rights but quite another to actually achieve a remedy. In other words, how are you actually going to get any money out of the seller if he doesn't want to pay up?
In practical terms you need to go through the process of, and carefully document,
i. Giving the seller a reasonable chance to fix the car
ii. If he doesn't fix it, getting it fixed elsewhere
iii. Make a claim in the Small Claims Court to recover the cost of fixing it from the seller.
1. Private sale - no warranty (unless specifically written)
2. Trade sale - Sale of Goods Act imposes some basic warranty but not a great deal so long as the car is basically working (more may be specifically written). The extent of the basic warranty depends on the age of the car and price paid.
Yours sounds like a trade sale with an additional written warranty. But what EXACTLY does that warranty say? How old was the car and what was the price?
In any situation like this it's one thing to have rights but quite another to actually achieve a remedy. In other words, how are you actually going to get any money out of the seller if he doesn't want to pay up?
In practical terms you need to go through the process of, and carefully document,
i. Giving the seller a reasonable chance to fix the car
ii. If he doesn't fix it, getting it fixed elsewhere
iii. Make a claim in the Small Claims Court to recover the cost of fixing it from the seller.
Ozzie, thanks for your reply.
To give you a bit more info - yes you are quite right, it was a trade sale. The car is 5 years old and I pad circa £20k for it.
The seller gave me no documentation about the warranty. No T's & C's etc. I intend to get this in writing on Monday.
Regardless of warranty, my point is that the vehicle was sold WITH these faults. They have not developed since I have owned the car. Surely, therefore, the warranty is discounted as I am not claiming on that - I am requesting that the car is fixed to the level that I reasonable expected it to be when I bought it at the expense of the dealer.
To give you a bit more info - yes you are quite right, it was a trade sale. The car is 5 years old and I pad circa £20k for it.
The seller gave me no documentation about the warranty. No T's & C's etc. I intend to get this in writing on Monday.
Regardless of warranty, my point is that the vehicle was sold WITH these faults. They have not developed since I have owned the car. Surely, therefore, the warranty is discounted as I am not claiming on that - I am requesting that the car is fixed to the level that I reasonable expected it to be when I bought it at the expense of the dealer.
Have a look at this link which will give you more of a feel for things,
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/c_secondhand_cars.pd...
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/c_secondhand_cars.pd...
Not sure how well you could pursue the "danger to road users" angle (yes, both faults could be but, as a criminal matter, you'd need to get the CPS* to agree it was worthwhile to get anywhere beyond threatening it - you've probably got more idea than I have about the chances of that happening 
)
On the other hand, at that sort of age and price, they're certainly not faults you'd expect so, unless they were specifically pointed out to you at the time of sale, there's no reason at all for you to accept them regardless of any warranty.
Any claim you might have will be with the person who sold you the car because that's who your contract of sale was with. The main dealer would have been contracted separately by the seller to sort the problems out so, if they didn't do so, that's a matter between them that does NOT affect your rights against the seller.
Simple answer if he won't play ball is go straight to Trading Standards. They just love this sort of thing (they may also have previous knowledge of the seller if he's given others problems in the past). Don't get into protracted discussions, or attempts at discussion, with the seller and don't "threaten" him with TS. Just phone them as soon as you're satisfied that he won't sort it out (that's about now by the sound of it)
)On the other hand, at that sort of age and price, they're certainly not faults you'd expect so, unless they were specifically pointed out to you at the time of sale, there's no reason at all for you to accept them regardless of any warranty.
Any claim you might have will be with the person who sold you the car because that's who your contract of sale was with. The main dealer would have been contracted separately by the seller to sort the problems out so, if they didn't do so, that's a matter between them that does NOT affect your rights against the seller.
Simple answer if he won't play ball is go straight to Trading Standards. They just love this sort of thing (they may also have previous knowledge of the seller if he's given others problems in the past). Don't get into protracted discussions, or attempts at discussion, with the seller and don't "threaten" him with TS. Just phone them as soon as you're satisfied that he won't sort it out (that's about now by the sound of it)
- or Trading Standards who I believe can also prosecute for this one. One more reason for them being your first call!
Variomatic said:
On the other hand, at that sort of age and price, they're certainly not faults you'd expect ...
Really? On a 5 year old car the sat nav flickers and the mirror is a bit iffy. If you want a perfect car then buy a new one. You'd probably have hassle getting those faults fixed though even if it was brand-new (especially if it is a Merc). No way would this go to court - if it did I expect the judge would heartily laugh. Trading Stabdards won't do anything themselves unless there's a significant history fo complaints.
Deva Link - thank you for your wise words of wisdom. I don't know if you're aware of the cost of a new SatNav unit and door mirror for my car, but the mirror alone is £806.70 including VAT.
Not worth going to court over? Maybe not for you, but it certainly is for me.
As for a laughing judge? I've been attending courts for too long to know that there's no such thing.
Hopefully things will be settled a bit more amicably than that, but who knows.
Again, thank you for your advice - don't take it personally if I ignore it.
Not worth going to court over? Maybe not for you, but it certainly is for me.
As for a laughing judge? I've been attending courts for too long to know that there's no such thing.
Hopefully things will be settled a bit more amicably than that, but who knows.
Again, thank you for your advice - don't take it personally if I ignore it.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Have a look at this link which will give you more of a feel for things,
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/c_secondhand_cars.pd...
Ozzie, thanks for this. Good resource well found.http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/c_secondhand_cars.pd...
A mirror which doesn't tilt when reversing or a flickering sat nav makes a car unroadworthy? Come on, that's fantasy land.
Firstly, have you checked you haven't turned off the tilt down? On most cars it depends where you have the mirror selector switch (personally I find it incredibly annoying so always turn it off).
SatNav screens are a right pain in the whatsit when a few years old and are always going wrong and in fact many warranties refuse to cover them.
That said, £20k isn't cheap and if you paid proper retail price I think the dealer should be helping out. Many can be fixed by various repair companies and don't need to go to the main dealer (in fact main dealer knowledge on such things is usually way below specialists).
Without you stating the car it is difficult to help more.
Firstly, have you checked you haven't turned off the tilt down? On most cars it depends where you have the mirror selector switch (personally I find it incredibly annoying so always turn it off).
SatNav screens are a right pain in the whatsit when a few years old and are always going wrong and in fact many warranties refuse to cover them.
That said, £20k isn't cheap and if you paid proper retail price I think the dealer should be helping out. Many can be fixed by various repair companies and don't need to go to the main dealer (in fact main dealer knowledge on such things is usually way below specialists).
Without you stating the car it is difficult to help more.
plg said:
On the faults - good luck.
But don't hold out hope on Section 75 - those aren't dangerous faults. Dangerous faults as I understand them are things that place you in danger (brakes, transmission, fuel leaks, etc)
As a very general guide if a car can pass an MOT then a dealer is 99% of the way to proving a car is roadworthy. This is why many dealers sell a car with 12 months MOT as a matter of policy as it covers their backs. But don't hold out hope on Section 75 - those aren't dangerous faults. Dangerous faults as I understand them are things that place you in danger (brakes, transmission, fuel leaks, etc)
Edited by plg on Friday 12th November 23:25
Variomatic said:
Simple answer if he won't play ball is go straight to Trading Standards. They just love this sort of thing (they may also have previous knowledge of the seller if he's given others problems in the past). Don't get into protracted discussions, or attempts at discussion, with the seller and don't "threaten" him with TS.
You must be joking. Unless they have a big file on a dealer TS won't do anything. TS only prosecute for dangerous cars, clocked cars, misrepresentation etc. They do not prosecute on behalf of other people and in the case of a faulty car it is a civil matter between two parties - all TS might do is give advice but even that will be vague as they do not want to be liable. (i.e. TS say "you have an excellent case", individual takes dealer to court, loses and gets £20000 bill, sues TS etc.....)TS will do nothing on your behalf except say "write a letter" and give you a leaflet.
OP - I was more gentle with you but I fear Deva Link has hit the nail on the head.
On a 5-year old car which is in good roadworthy condition it is going to be "uphill" for you pressing to get the car fixed by the seller. Trading Standards is a good place to start but please don't expect a miracle.
For your car a potential source of cheaper parts may be the larger breakers or ebay. Again, neither is without risk.
If it costs a lot of money to get the car fixed it's worth making a "small claim" in court - see link below. The process is dealt with online and isn't much hassle or cost. If nothing else it may persuade the seller to make a contribution towards your expenditure to get rid of the claim.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claim...
On a 5-year old car which is in good roadworthy condition it is going to be "uphill" for you pressing to get the car fixed by the seller. Trading Standards is a good place to start but please don't expect a miracle.
For your car a potential source of cheaper parts may be the larger breakers or ebay. Again, neither is without risk.
If it costs a lot of money to get the car fixed it's worth making a "small claim" in court - see link below. The process is dealt with online and isn't much hassle or cost. If nothing else it may persuade the seller to make a contribution towards your expenditure to get rid of the claim.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claim...
Trading Standards are only going to be interested if a criminal act has occured and that is the only circumstances in which they may act themselves.
An unroadworthy or misrepresented car TS themselves may prosecute.
In the case of a roadworthy car which blows up 100 yards down the road they cannot and will not do anything. In such a case it is a civil matter between buyer and seller - no criminal act has occured and Trading Standards have no reason to get involved beyond giving advice to the buyer (and indeed the seller if the seller wants it).
Trading Standards have not been "wronged" so they are not going to sue the seller.
The degree to which TS will get involved in a civil case between two parties is very limited - they are not a free legal advice service and do not want the liability in having stated their opinion on an individual case should they be sued themselves.
Basically, as far as legal redress goes, you're on your own I'm afraid.
An unroadworthy or misrepresented car TS themselves may prosecute.
In the case of a roadworthy car which blows up 100 yards down the road they cannot and will not do anything. In such a case it is a civil matter between buyer and seller - no criminal act has occured and Trading Standards have no reason to get involved beyond giving advice to the buyer (and indeed the seller if the seller wants it).
Trading Standards have not been "wronged" so they are not going to sue the seller.
The degree to which TS will get involved in a civil case between two parties is very limited - they are not a free legal advice service and do not want the liability in having stated their opinion on an individual case should they be sued themselves.
Basically, as far as legal redress goes, you're on your own I'm afraid.
If the car is a Merc the mirror wires can break internally where they fold. Can cause problems. A full mirror is not necessary, but it is £250 a pop still or the wiring can be repaired.
On a £20k car I think it's reasonable to expect these items to work. Trading Standards would be worth a call. Don't think the dealer has a leg to stand on.
On a £20k car I think it's reasonable to expect these items to work. Trading Standards would be worth a call. Don't think the dealer has a leg to stand on.
Morally dealer should sort the Nav out for you. He has attempted to do this by taking it the the main dealer who will have charged him and told him all is ok. Car needs to go back to main agents for another try. If unsuccesful you need to write to the dealer. (on a £20K we would replace, but thats us).
Did you buy this car from a dealer operating from home?
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