Beginning of the end for the piston engine?
Discussion
A couple of working concepts have hit the press recently as test-driven models. Both are "range extended hybrid electric cars" like the Chevrolet Volt, but unlike the Volt, theydon't use piston engines to power the generators.
Of the reviews, the Audi sounds most interesting, and it sounds like it's virtually ready for production. What is particularly interesting is that Audi think it is cheaper at present to make a half-size battery pack and rotary engine than it is to make a full-size battery pack. This has the added advantage of using pre-existing fuel infrastructure when away from home.
The tiny size of a turbine or rotary generator compared to a piston engine makes a huge amount of sense to me, and I hope Audi especially get this to market quickly.
Anyway, have a read if you are interested.
- Elec Range - Total Range (diesel)
Jaguar CX75 - 70 miles - 560 miles
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Ja...
- Elec Range - Total Range (petrol)
Audi A1 - 31 miles - 156 miles
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Au...
Might not be cheap NOW, but economies of scale effect and so on will drive cost down once a lot of cars are powered this way.
That's not to say this will be the way forward but "price" is flexible and changes over time. e.g. stuff that was considered too expensive (and complicated and so on) 20 years ago aren't so now. Something in EVO this month about turbines coming into use (maybe etc.)
That's not to say this will be the way forward but "price" is flexible and changes over time. e.g. stuff that was considered too expensive (and complicated and so on) 20 years ago aren't so now. Something in EVO this month about turbines coming into use (maybe etc.)
doogz said:
Price N/A.
That will very much control whether or not something like this will be a success imo. And i bet it's not cheap.
Totally. It's a major stumbling block, and as I have stated on a previous thread, with "new tech" manufacturers will be loath to offer a 3 year or even 5 year warranty on something that they don't know has been tested for years by the idiot public.... like the petrol and diesel engine.That will very much control whether or not something like this will be a success imo. And i bet it's not cheap.
Rotary engines are fairly cheap to produce, as are turbines, but they do not currently have the economies of scale or much testing in the hands of the general public. Hence manufacturers are like a bunch of penguins waiting for someone to take the plunge and test the water for leopard seals first.
Superhoop said:
Surely if everyone decides to go down the Rotary engine route, it's great news for Mazda - Who happen to own the worldwide rights to the rotary engine IIRC
Is that really true? I heard a similar story that Subaru own the rights to the flat-4 which is why VW stopped producing the original air-cooled beetle. No idea how true that is.Mr Gear said:
Superhoop said:
Surely if everyone decides to go down the Rotary engine route, it's great news for Mazda - Who happen to own the worldwide rights to the rotary engine IIRC
Is that really true? I heard a similar story that Subaru own the rights to the flat-4 which is why VW stopped producing the original air-cooled beetle. No idea how true that is.Agreed on the price front. If it isn't the same price as a golf is now, it wont sell in big numbers.
Very clever though. Almost definatly the way forward until a decent replacement for the combustion engine is developed. Fully electric cars just aren't there yet.
Very clever though. Almost definatly the way forward until a decent replacement for the combustion engine is developed. Fully electric cars just aren't there yet.
Edited by Deluded on Monday 15th November 13:16
doogz said:
Mr Gear said:
Superhoop said:
Surely if everyone decides to go down the Rotary engine route, it's great news for Mazda - Who happen to own the worldwide rights to the rotary engine IIRC
Is that really true? I heard a similar story that Subaru own the rights to the flat-4 which is why VW stopped producing the original air-cooled beetle. No idea how true that is.Rotary engines (wankel) can be found in a variety of vehicles, boats, micro-lights, chainsaws, loads of stuff. Mazda don't own it.
Same with the Flat 4, no-one "owns" it.
Packaging-wise, it's a delight, and with the inexorable march of pedestrian crash regs may see a resurgence, but otherwise it remains an interesting little oddity on the fringes.
Much the same with a rotary engine; perfect packaging, but a pain in the arse for ancillaries, a nightmare to tune correctly (requires pressure wave tuning), and horrendous fuel consumption (as it's almost a two stroke engine).
marcosgt said:
Didn't Norton make a race bike with a rotary engine?
M.
Yep, and they went bust almost immediately after.M.
Not the fault of the engine, but even so... the problem is there. Would Audi put a rotary engine into production for a car that may only be relevant for 10-15 years? At some point in the near future, there will be a better and more convenient way to power a hybrid than using a "range extender" generator. Will Audi re-coup the investment? It's a big gamble, and most big car makers are extremely risk-averse.
Mr Gear said:
marcosgt said:
Didn't Norton make a race bike with a rotary engine?
M.
Yep, and they went bust almost immediately after.M.
Not the fault of the engine, but even so... the problem is there. Would Audi put a rotary engine into production for a car that may only be relevant for 10-15 years? At some point in the near future, there will be a better and more convenient way to power a hybrid than using a "range extender" generator. Will Audi re-coup the investment? It's a big gamble, and most big car makers are extremely risk-averse.
The Crack Fox said:
Beginning of the end again ?
The 'beginning of the end' seems to happen every 6 months when yet another Manufacturer shows a concept of something without price or realistic production date with the main USP of avoiding a congestion charge most of the country don't pay anyway, that they've been cajoled by greenies into cobbling together for publicity purposes.
I'll believe it when I see it on the roads in real numbers. Until then, pfffffffft.
So only people who live in London benefit from having a 30-mile petrol-free range? I think not.The 'beginning of the end' seems to happen every 6 months when yet another Manufacturer shows a concept of something without price or realistic production date with the main USP of avoiding a congestion charge most of the country don't pay anyway, that they've been cajoled by greenies into cobbling together for publicity purposes.
I'll believe it when I see it on the roads in real numbers. Until then, pfffffffft.
The fact is, manufacturers are desperate to release something like this, but they are all waiting to see who jumps first.
But thanks for not disappointing with the standard Crack Fox anti electric car response.
The Audi does look interesting. If they can keep the price down to sensible levels (no more than 50% higher than a conventional piston engined city car has to be the target, I think) then I think they have a chance of really taking off.
I can easily see a time in my life time when direct drive piston engines in small cars are a thing of the past and I think it would be a good thing. I think it will take a lot longer for it to be viable for larger cars that typically do significantly longer journeys.
I can easily see a time in my life time when direct drive piston engines in small cars are a thing of the past and I think it would be a good thing. I think it will take a lot longer for it to be viable for larger cars that typically do significantly longer journeys.
Edited by kambites on Monday 15th November 13:46
The Crack Fox said:
Mr Gear said:
The Crack Fox said:
Beginning of the end again ?
The 'beginning of the end' seems to happen every 6 months when yet another Manufacturer shows a concept of something without price or realistic production date with the main USP of avoiding a congestion charge most of the country don't pay anyway, that they've been cajoled by greenies into cobbling together for publicity purposes.
I'll believe it when I see it on the roads in real numbers. Until then, pfffffffft.
So only people who live in London benefit from having a 30-mile petrol-free range? I think not.The 'beginning of the end' seems to happen every 6 months when yet another Manufacturer shows a concept of something without price or realistic production date with the main USP of avoiding a congestion charge most of the country don't pay anyway, that they've been cajoled by greenies into cobbling together for publicity purposes.
I'll believe it when I see it on the roads in real numbers. Until then, pfffffffft.
The fact is, manufacturers are desperate to release something like this, but they are all waiting to see who jumps first.
But thanks for not disappointing with the standard Crack Fox anti electric car response.
Show me one of these in a showroom with a price sticker on, and I'll take it seriously, until then, as interesting as the theory may be, it's just another electric car concept...
The four cylinder petrol engine always seemed like a bizarre choice for this vehicle to me, but the reason is easily guessed... GM is financially on its arse and playing a risk-averse strategy.
The Crack Fox said:
Mr Gear said:
The Crack Fox said:
Beginning of the end again ?
The 'beginning of the end' seems to happen every 6 months when yet another Manufacturer shows a concept of something without price or realistic production date with the main USP of avoiding a congestion charge most of the country don't pay anyway, that they've been cajoled by greenies into cobbling together for publicity purposes.
I'll believe it when I see it on the roads in real numbers. Until then, pfffffffft.
So only people who live in London benefit from having a 30-mile petrol-free range? I think not.The 'beginning of the end' seems to happen every 6 months when yet another Manufacturer shows a concept of something without price or realistic production date with the main USP of avoiding a congestion charge most of the country don't pay anyway, that they've been cajoled by greenies into cobbling together for publicity purposes.
I'll believe it when I see it on the roads in real numbers. Until then, pfffffffft.
The fact is, manufacturers are desperate to release something like this, but they are all waiting to see who jumps first.
But thanks for not disappointing with the standard Crack Fox anti electric car response.
Show me one of these in a showroom with a price sticker on, and I'll take it seriously, until then, as interesting as the theory may be, it's just another electric car concept...
Mr Gear said:
Well the Chevrolet Volt is available to buy right now and is due for delivery to the first customers in a matter of weeks. The cost is reasonable at $33,000, but admittedly a degree more than conventional hybrid alternatives. http://www.chevrolet.com/volt/
The four cylinder petrol engine always seemed like a bizarre choice for this vehicle to me, but the reason is easily guessed... GM is financially on its arse and playing a risk-averse strategy.
Not quite.The four cylinder petrol engine always seemed like a bizarre choice for this vehicle to me, but the reason is easily guessed... GM is financially on its arse and playing a risk-averse strategy.
Its the Opel/Vauxhall Ampera this side of the Atlantic and the price is much more than you suggest there, which is also after the US $7500 subsidy.
43k Euros.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/...
JonnyVTEC said:
Mr Gear said:
Well the Chevrolet Volt is available to buy right now and is due for delivery to the first customers in a matter of weeks. The cost is reasonable at $33,000, but admittedly a degree more than conventional hybrid alternatives. http://www.chevrolet.com/volt/
The four cylinder petrol engine always seemed like a bizarre choice for this vehicle to me, but the reason is easily guessed... GM is financially on its arse and playing a risk-averse strategy.
Not quite.The four cylinder petrol engine always seemed like a bizarre choice for this vehicle to me, but the reason is easily guessed... GM is financially on its arse and playing a risk-averse strategy.
Its the Opel/Vauxhall Ampera this side of the Atlantic and the price is much more than you suggest there, which is also after the US $7500 subsidy.
43k Euros.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/...
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