R32 GTR, E36 M3, 968, Monaro - Which Is The Most Rewarding ?
Discussion
I'm looking for a new toy having just sold my 5.4 F150 which I didn't bond with as I'm a driver not a cruiser.
I want a fun RWD (the GTR is effectively RWD IMO) that has a feel good factor, will do motorways but most importantly is rewarding to own / drive.
I don't cover many miles and am unwilling to take on a car that is likely to be unreliable or likely to regularly generate 4 figure bills (I'd love a Cerbera but I'm unwilling to take the risk) I also find older cars more involving than newer ones.
I'm 99% sure these four cars are the list so has anyone owned more than one of them and what are they like day to day ?
Skyline GTR R32
BMW E36 M3 Evo
Porsche 968
Monaro
I want a fun RWD (the GTR is effectively RWD IMO) that has a feel good factor, will do motorways but most importantly is rewarding to own / drive.
I don't cover many miles and am unwilling to take on a car that is likely to be unreliable or likely to regularly generate 4 figure bills (I'd love a Cerbera but I'm unwilling to take the risk) I also find older cars more involving than newer ones.
I'm 99% sure these four cars are the list so has anyone owned more than one of them and what are they like day to day ?
Skyline GTR R32
BMW E36 M3 Evo
Porsche 968
Monaro
My 968 sport was a much more entertaining car than my E36 M3 evo (i tried a manual and an SMG version), much better handling, more accomplished coupe, more special to use. OK the 3.2 M3 evo has a very nice engine back lacks in every other respect when compared to the 944/968, the gear change and steering in particular let the older M3 down.
If you are looking for something fun I'd recommend a 944 turbo SE over a 968 sport. Its easy to get a reliable 300'ish bhp from them at which point they become seriously quick, plus I found the Turbo to have better handling (and bigger brakes) and an LSD as standard which the 968 does not.
Monaro will be a better bet if you dont like fixing typical old car problems/niggles.
If you are looking for something fun I'd recommend a 944 turbo SE over a 968 sport. Its easy to get a reliable 300'ish bhp from them at which point they become seriously quick, plus I found the Turbo to have better handling (and bigger brakes) and an LSD as standard which the 968 does not.
Monaro will be a better bet if you dont like fixing typical old car problems/niggles.
I really rather like my e36 M3 Evo but can't comment on the others.
The M3 is a very, very good all round car, it goes fast (mine managed ~164mph at VMax in 5th), is a good GT for long journeys has enough space for trips to Europe and doesn't drink petrol like a fish (getting ~25mpg long term).
The inspection 2 isn't cheap but servicing overall doesn't seem to silly as long as big things don't break.
The M3 is a very, very good all round car, it goes fast (mine managed ~164mph at VMax in 5th), is a good GT for long journeys has enough space for trips to Europe and doesn't drink petrol like a fish (getting ~25mpg long term).
The inspection 2 isn't cheap but servicing overall doesn't seem to silly as long as big things don't break.
I can only really speak for the Monaro, I'm afraid,( although I have driven an E36 M3 ).
A standard, unmodified Monaro, especially in CV8 form, will not feel as well set up, suspension and handling wise, as the other cars. They are quite heavy (1670kg) and are regarded as being over-damped, and the steering is slow at around 3.3 turns LTL. The VXR versions, aka HSV (Holden Special Vehicles), are better set up, with more responsive suspension and brakes, as well as revised gear ratios amongst other improvements. All cars are well equiped however, and are very comfortable for long journeys/trips to the Continent.
The standard exhausts on all models are whisper quiet and not surprisingly, this is one of the first changes done to any modified car, releasing a bit more V8 'burble/thunder/pop-bang'
What can't be taken away from these cars though (even in stock form) is the sensation of riding a big wave of torque (369-400lb-ft as standard depending on model) right up to 165 + mph. One Monaro owner has just taken his twin turbo'd, 900hp car to 206MPH at Bruntingthorpe
The main point is, these cars are exceptionally well suited to tuning modifications, the LS engines being legendary for reliability and ease of maintenance. If you buy a Monaro, YOU WILL end up spending money on it, making it louder/faster/better handling.
Think of the Monaro as a big friendly brute, cheap to maintain and run (30mpg possible), and similar in many ways to a Cerbera (except reliability and build quality
) and you won't go far wrong.
HTH
EFA for teribl speelin
A standard, unmodified Monaro, especially in CV8 form, will not feel as well set up, suspension and handling wise, as the other cars. They are quite heavy (1670kg) and are regarded as being over-damped, and the steering is slow at around 3.3 turns LTL. The VXR versions, aka HSV (Holden Special Vehicles), are better set up, with more responsive suspension and brakes, as well as revised gear ratios amongst other improvements. All cars are well equiped however, and are very comfortable for long journeys/trips to the Continent.
The standard exhausts on all models are whisper quiet and not surprisingly, this is one of the first changes done to any modified car, releasing a bit more V8 'burble/thunder/pop-bang'
What can't be taken away from these cars though (even in stock form) is the sensation of riding a big wave of torque (369-400lb-ft as standard depending on model) right up to 165 + mph. One Monaro owner has just taken his twin turbo'd, 900hp car to 206MPH at Bruntingthorpe
The main point is, these cars are exceptionally well suited to tuning modifications, the LS engines being legendary for reliability and ease of maintenance. If you buy a Monaro, YOU WILL end up spending money on it, making it louder/faster/better handling.
Think of the Monaro as a big friendly brute, cheap to maintain and run (30mpg possible), and similar in many ways to a Cerbera (except reliability and build quality
) and you won't go far wrong.HTH
EFA for teribl speelin
Edited by V88Dicky on Thursday 25th November 11:15
Edited by V88Dicky on Thursday 25th November 11:17
I would expect it to be the 968, because it's a proper sports car with a lower CofG, shorter wheelbase etc. The Skyline would probably be the fastest though.
This isn't a criticism of the OP or the car, but I'm interested how the Skyline has now become the "GTR" since the launch of the Nissan GTR It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare, in everyday parlance the Skyline GTR was always just called the Skyline People used to say in the pub "I've got a Skyline mate", whereas now it's "I've got a GTR". I guess it makes it sound faster
This isn't a criticism of the OP or the car, but I'm interested how the Skyline has now become the "GTR" since the launch of the Nissan GTR
It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare, in everyday parlance the Skyline GTR was always just called the Skyline People used to say in the pub "I've got a Skyline mate", whereas now it's "I've got a GTR". I guess it makes it sound faster RobM77 said:
This isn't a criticism of the OP or the car, but I'm interested how the Skyline has now become the "GTR" since the launch of the Nissan GTR It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare,
probably because there a lots of nasty NON GTR Skylines that have been imported to the UK that often come up for sale and are really NOT worth considering, ie 2wd versions and non turbo versions. It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare, Edited by rallycross on Thursday 25th November 11:39
I've not driven a 968.
Driven a Monaro.
Own an M3 EVO
Owned an R33 GTR
I like the M3, as it does what is say on he tin. It's a quick car, handling is tail happy but still fairly benign. Brakes are a bit weak. Good boot, split fold rear seats and can carry 4 adults.
Monaro is like a bigger, more powerful but cruder M3 really.
GTR is where I'd but my money (but get an R33, they look and feel far less dated inside).
All 3 should be reliable if driven with mechanical sympathy and serviced accordingly (ie, warm them up defore you cane them).
Driven a Monaro.
Own an M3 EVO
Owned an R33 GTR
I like the M3, as it does what is say on he tin. It's a quick car, handling is tail happy but still fairly benign. Brakes are a bit weak. Good boot, split fold rear seats and can carry 4 adults.
Monaro is like a bigger, more powerful but cruder M3 really.
GTR is where I'd but my money (but get an R33, they look and feel far less dated inside).
All 3 should be reliable if driven with mechanical sympathy and serviced accordingly (ie, warm them up defore you cane them).
rallycross said:
RobM77 said:
This isn't a criticism of the OP or the car, but I'm interested how the Skyline has now become the "GTR" since the launch of the Nissan GTR It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare,
probably because there a lots of nasty non GTR Skylines that have been imported to the UK that often come up for sale and are really worth considering, like 2wd versions and non turbo versions. It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare, My answer is obviously biased (I had to make a similar choice).
To my mind the newer cars get the less 'interactive' they get. New versions are usually faster/better cruisers etc but the price of progress is usually less steering feel or in fact feedback of any form.
My opinion of the E36 M3 was that it was a very accomplished car just not a sports car. Certainly very quick but the steering was good enough (for me). Does have day to day advantages over other similar cars if that's your thing.
Monaro - I've not driven. What I've read of them suggests that they are a bit lazy and GT like. I'm sure they'd be the best choice for motorway miles but probably not so good down backroads. For me the engine would be the appeal.
968s are interesting cars. I'm not sure that as mentioned above a 944 Turbo with suitable upgrades (which would be fair given the relative prices) wouldn't be a better car. They ultimately weren't quick enough for the cost and the engine isn't special enough to my mind. I've heard of guys in the US fitting LS series engines which sounds like an excellent idea and would address the cars short comings. It's also a very old design which has admittedly been developed a fair amount. The 924 and 944 are suitably different to my mind but the 944 and 968 are more of a face lift.
I chose a Datsun for a number of reasons. The engine is (IMO) the best here; 8200rpm limit, easy path to nearly 400bhp, six throttle bodies, straight six etc. More power is of course possible if that's your desire. The steering is excellent with proper feedback despite the steam roller tyres. The drivetrain is of course the biggest sell. Short of some very high end alternatives nothing else offers the combination of RWD with on demand 4WD. I remembered reading a magazine review where the journos took one to the 'ring in the early '90s and found themselves annoying the Porsche testing team (seems to be an on going situation...). I seem to remember that short of Supercars no other road cars came near their times for a number of years. Not bad for the restricted car...
To my mind the newer cars get the less 'interactive' they get. New versions are usually faster/better cruisers etc but the price of progress is usually less steering feel or in fact feedback of any form.
My opinion of the E36 M3 was that it was a very accomplished car just not a sports car. Certainly very quick but the steering was good enough (for me). Does have day to day advantages over other similar cars if that's your thing.
Monaro - I've not driven. What I've read of them suggests that they are a bit lazy and GT like. I'm sure they'd be the best choice for motorway miles but probably not so good down backroads. For me the engine would be the appeal.
968s are interesting cars. I'm not sure that as mentioned above a 944 Turbo with suitable upgrades (which would be fair given the relative prices) wouldn't be a better car. They ultimately weren't quick enough for the cost and the engine isn't special enough to my mind. I've heard of guys in the US fitting LS series engines which sounds like an excellent idea and would address the cars short comings. It's also a very old design which has admittedly been developed a fair amount. The 924 and 944 are suitably different to my mind but the 944 and 968 are more of a face lift.
I chose a Datsun for a number of reasons. The engine is (IMO) the best here; 8200rpm limit, easy path to nearly 400bhp, six throttle bodies, straight six etc. More power is of course possible if that's your desire. The steering is excellent with proper feedback despite the steam roller tyres. The drivetrain is of course the biggest sell. Short of some very high end alternatives nothing else offers the combination of RWD with on demand 4WD. I remembered reading a magazine review where the journos took one to the 'ring in the early '90s and found themselves annoying the Porsche testing team (seems to be an on going situation...). I seem to remember that short of Supercars no other road cars came near their times for a number of years. Not bad for the restricted car...
RobM77 said:
This isn't a criticism of the OP or the car, but I'm interested how the Skyline has now become the "GTR" since the launch of the Nissan GTR It always was the Skyline GTR of course,
Simple... Skyline GTR made the title too long to fit in It always was the Skyline GTR of course, And there seem to be loads more R32 GT 2.0 non turbo and turbo models than GTR's available and they are mostly RWD whereas I specifically wanted the 2.6 GTR.
CrisW said:
I remembered reading a magazine review where the journos took one to the 'ring in the early '90s and found themselves annoying the Porsche testing team (seems to be an on going situation...). I seem to remember that short of Supercars no other road cars came near their times for a number of years. Not bad for the restricted car...
CAR magazine Feb 1990 - page 96 ...."It looks like a Tokyo taxi cab...." - Gavin Green ( who is a pretty good driver anyway ) vs Porsche test drivers in 928s.ISTR one of the 928s had an engine mishap whilst pushing hard
Edited by Smike on Thursday 25th November 11:58
Thanks for the replies...
I'm not looking for a cruiser but love the idea of the LS engine but if the Monaro can't be thrown around then its not for me.
I am happy to buy a modified car (and/or modify myself) but with the 'speed kills BS' everywhere I think any of them in std form will be quick enough although you show me an LS engined 968 or RX7 at a half sensible price and I'd buy it immediately.
I thought the 968 would be my obvious choice but really the iconic nature of the R32 appeals plus with it being the smallest / lightest GTR it seems the obvious version to get. Plus it and the M3 have a lot more power than the 968 - although the 968 I drove seemed fast enough TBH.
I used to own a chipped 944 Turbo and I felt it had too much lag and it looked a bit dated which is why I thought the 968 was the car for me (and that was 10yrs ago)
I'm not looking for a cruiser but love the idea of the LS engine but if the Monaro can't be thrown around then its not for me.
I am happy to buy a modified car (and/or modify myself) but with the 'speed kills BS' everywhere I think any of them in std form will be quick enough although you show me an LS engined 968 or RX7 at a half sensible price and I'd buy it immediately.
I thought the 968 would be my obvious choice but really the iconic nature of the R32 appeals plus with it being the smallest / lightest GTR it seems the obvious version to get. Plus it and the M3 have a lot more power than the 968 - although the 968 I drove seemed fast enough TBH.
I used to own a chipped 944 Turbo and I felt it had too much lag and it looked a bit dated which is why I thought the 968 was the car for me (and that was 10yrs ago)
redgriff500 said:
Thanks for the replies...
I'm not looking for a cruiser but love the idea of the LS engine but if the Monaro can't be thrown around then its not for me.
I am happy to buy a modified car (and/or modify myself) but with the 'speed kills BS' everywhere I think any of them in std form will be quick enough although you show me an LS engined 968 or RX7 at a half sensible price and I'd buy it immediately.
I thought the 968 would be my obvious choice but really the iconic nature of the R32 appeals plus with it being the smallest / lightest GTR it seems the obvious version to get. Plus it and the M3 have a lot more power than the 968 - although the 968 I drove seemed fast enough TBH.
I used to own a chipped 944 Turbo and I felt it had too much lag and it looked a bit dated which is why I thought the 968 was the car for me (and that was 10yrs ago)
the 4wd on the r32 kicks in very late, so it does essentially feel like a RWD, until you really need it, which is very different from the R33 GTR, and even more so than the R34 GTR.I'm not looking for a cruiser but love the idea of the LS engine but if the Monaro can't be thrown around then its not for me.
I am happy to buy a modified car (and/or modify myself) but with the 'speed kills BS' everywhere I think any of them in std form will be quick enough although you show me an LS engined 968 or RX7 at a half sensible price and I'd buy it immediately.
I thought the 968 would be my obvious choice but really the iconic nature of the R32 appeals plus with it being the smallest / lightest GTR it seems the obvious version to get. Plus it and the M3 have a lot more power than the 968 - although the 968 I drove seemed fast enough TBH.
I used to own a chipped 944 Turbo and I felt it had too much lag and it looked a bit dated which is why I thought the 968 was the car for me (and that was 10yrs ago)
The M3 is nice, but from my experience it isn't nearly as fun to drive. it is undoubtably a very good car, will carry you through corners very well, and great acceleration, but in my experience it does feel a bit numb compared to an R32 GTR
I have no experience of the monaro or porsche, however would have thought the monaro was a lot more torquey.
The other thing to consider, is whether instead of looking at the skyline R32 GTR, looking at an R33 GTST. For the same money as the GTR, you can but a gtst with 400bhp+. You dont get the 4wd, only Rwd, so more comparable to the m3, and its just one big turbo instead of two which means it will be cheaper to tune to higher bhp, but will be slightly more laggy.
RobM77 said:
This isn't a criticism of the OP or the car, but I'm interested how the Skyline has now become the "GTR" since the launch of the Nissan GTR It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare, in everyday parlance the Skyline GTR was always just called the Skyline People used to say in the pub "I've got a Skyline mate", whereas now it's "I've got a GTR". I guess it makes it sound faster
Not true. It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare, in everyday parlance the Skyline GTR was always just called the Skyline People used to say in the pub "I've got a Skyline mate", whereas now it's "I've got a GTR". I guess it makes it sound faster It was always "Skyline GTR" to differntiate it from the hundreds of crap Skyline GTT's or Gts that are everywhere.
THe GTR has always been to Skyline what RS is to Audis and M is to BMWs.
blindswelledrat said:
RobM77 said:
This isn't a criticism of the OP or the car, but I'm interested how the Skyline has now become the "GTR" since the launch of the Nissan GTR It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare, in everyday parlance the Skyline GTR was always just called the Skyline People used to say in the pub "I've got a Skyline mate", whereas now it's "I've got a GTR". I guess it makes it sound faster
Not true.It always was the Skyline GTR of course, but in the uk, where the other Skyline models are very rare, in everyday parlance the Skyline GTR was always just called the Skyline People used to say in the pub "I've got a Skyline mate", whereas now it's "I've got a GTR". I guess it makes it sound faster It was always "Skyline GTR" to differntiate it from the hundreds of crap Skyline GTT's or Gts that are everywhere.
THe GTR has always been to Skyline what RS is to Audis and M is to BMWs.
Im sorry I don't really understand it.
As far as I am aware, people have only ever referred to Skyline GTR's as "Skyline GTR's" and other Skylines as "Skylines" or "s
t Skylines" so I don't really get your point.
Edit: I think we are probably in two different eras. I don't know that much about the R32's and I think you are probably right where they are concerned.
More recently with the R33 Skylines the opposite is actually the case. THere are many more crap Skylines than GTR skylines thus those have always been differentiated.
As far as I am aware, people have only ever referred to Skyline GTR's as "Skyline GTR's" and other Skylines as "Skylines" or "s
t Skylines" so I don't really get your point.Edit: I think we are probably in two different eras. I don't know that much about the R32's and I think you are probably right where they are concerned.
More recently with the R33 Skylines the opposite is actually the case. THere are many more crap Skylines than GTR skylines thus those have always been differentiated.
Edited by blindswelledrat on Thursday 25th November 12:45
blindswelledrat said:
Im sorry I don't really understand it.
As far as I am aware, people have only ever referred to Skyline GTR's as "Skyline GTR's" and other Skylines as "Skylines" or "st Skylines" so I don't really get your point.
My point (which isn't aimed at the OP and please let's not ruin his thread with discussing my brief quip in minute detail), as explained many times above, was that since the launch of the "GTR" a few years ago, people have started referring to the R32, R33 and R34 Skylines as "GTRs", whereas before, in this country, they were referred to casually by the R numbers, or simply as "Skylines". Yes, I know they always had "Skyline GTR" written on them, but casually people just called them "R32 Skyline" etc. I even know people who've owned Skylines for years, and referred to their car as an "R32" or as a "Skyline", who suddenly switched almost overnight to calling their car a "GTR".As far as I am aware, people have only ever referred to Skyline GTR's as "Skyline GTR's" and other Skylines as "Skylines" or "s
t Skylines" so I don't really get your point.On with the OP's thread! I had no idea I'd cause such a diversion with a 3 seconds tongue in cheek comment!
Rob - thanks, I never think of checking Youtube for this stuff.
Found the Clarkson test but it was for an R34 and they didn't like it as it helped you out too much - which isn't what I want but as has been pointed out the R32 does this less.
I test drove an R32 and wanted to check the 4WD was working and I got it to drift in the dry very easily - it seemed to handle like a big MX5, I only didn't buy it as it had a few issues and the seller seemed dodgy so I didn't risk it, same with a 968 with a dented floor a couple of years before that.
Found the Clarkson test but it was for an R34 and they didn't like it as it helped you out too much - which isn't what I want but as has been pointed out the R32 does this less.
I test drove an R32 and wanted to check the 4WD was working and I got it to drift in the dry very easily - it seemed to handle like a big MX5, I only didn't buy it as it had a few issues and the seller seemed dodgy so I didn't risk it, same with a 968 with a dented floor a couple of years before that.
As I said, the one thing the M3 has the GTR doesn't is folding rear seats for more boot space, which is sometimes ueful.
As for GTR variants, the R33 had a few features which improved on the R32, including quicker engagement of the front wheels (R32 is much more tail happy) and also things like an improved oil pickup. The 4wd system stayed basically the same in all generations though and is arguabley one of the best ever created.
They really are an epic piece of kit!
As for GTR variants, the R33 had a few features which improved on the R32, including quicker engagement of the front wheels (R32 is much more tail happy) and also things like an improved oil pickup. The 4wd system stayed basically the same in all generations though and is arguabley one of the best ever created.
They really are an epic piece of kit!
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