DV-LA-la-la Someone finally listened.
Discussion
From my other DVLA related threads, "Nice letter to the DVLA" http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f... "DV-LA-la-la I'm not listening" http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f... and "DVLA vs Liquid Knight" http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f... . I have been having issues with the DVLA concerning a SORN fine issued to me for a car I scrapped over a year before I got the first "Penalty Notice" in the post. So over the last six months I have been sending letters to the DVLA Continuous Registrations Department, Enforcement Department and am currently dealing with the DVLA's favorite Bailiff company.
It took five letters for the DVLA to admit the "SORN Penalty Notice" was not an enforcable "Penalty Notice" or "fine" at all but was a "supplement", "administration charge" or "handling fee". They only admitted it due to being invited to a Magistrates Court for the sake of "due process".
So this was served in accordance to the law a couple of weeks ago.
Mr. Phillip Hammond MP
Secretary of State for Transport
the Palace of Westminster
London
SW1P 3PA
DVLA reference: Blah-blah
Dear Minister,
I have been writing to the DVLAs continuous registrations department and enforcement department concerning a vehicle previously registered to me and my refusal to pay a “fine” for failing declare the vehicle as SORN. This “fine” had been imposed over a year after the vehicle was disposed of and the documents sent to the DVLA in full accordance to the law; therefore the vehicle was no longer legally my responsibility and the “fine” has been issued unlawfully.
In all five of my letters to these departments I have consistently referred to the “SORN Penalty Notice” as a “fine” because of its resemblance to a “Fixed Penalty Notice” issued by the Police. I questioned why I had been issued a “fine” when I had not committed any criminal offence. The language used in replies sent to me “enforcement, constitute a defence, mitigation, evidence, appeal” etc and references to various laws VERA for one compounded the impression given by the DVLA that the “SORN Penalty Notice” was indeed a “fine” and carried legal ramifications should I decide not to pay.
So; in my last letter I invited the DVLA to my local Magistrates court to deal with this situation through the correct and proper channels as there was no evidence of due process with the SORN “fine” system. This was declined; due to the fact and was freely admitted in the last reply I have committed no criminal offence. As well as confirming what I was already well aware of it also proved a point; that the use of the term “Penalty Notice” in relation to the non-declaration of a SORN is completely inappropriate. The DVLA “SORN Penalty Notice” is in actual fact; nothing more than an administration fee or to quote the last reply from Mr Whoop-whoop of the enforcement department;
“a supplement of £80.00 owed to the DVLA”.
This is an obvious case of fraud by false representation section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”. I put it to you that the DVLA have deliberately made the “SORN Penalty Notice” resemble a “Fixed Penalty Notice” or “fine” to mislead and intimidate members of the public into loss or put them at the risk of loss when there is no legal recourse for failing to do so.
The fact it took five letters and five replies to reveal the “SORN Penalty Notice” was not a “fine” at all but in actual fact a “supplement” demonstrates premeditation and a deliberate act on the part of the DVLA employees to withhold this information and not an accidental oversight. This is Fraud by Withholding Information; section three of the “Fraud Act 2006”. If the “SORN Penalty Notice” had been referred to as a “supplement”, handling fee or administration charge in the first reply to my enquiry this would not have been an issue, but the information was withheld deliberately to put someone (myself) at the risk of loss and was only revealed when confronted with the suggestion of appearing before a Magistrate.
I hope you will be able to address this and I do not have to initiate criminal proceedings towards those individuals from the continuous registration and enforcement departments who have been involved so far. Once again DVLA reference:Blah-blah.
I would pursue the Fraud by False Representation in the interests of justice and encourage any other member of the public who has been defrauded by the DVLA to do exactly the same.
The DVLA made over ten million Pounds last year in “SORN Penalty Notices” if these were paid as a result of intimidation and/or fraud then I feel it is my duty to ensure every member of the public who have been affected by this are made well aware. If any member of the public has paid a “SORN Penalty Notice” because the DVLA have been misleading people into believing it to have been a “fine” then they should be entitled to a full refund.
Yours sincerely,
Me
P.S “in full accordance to the law” was in reference to the Interpretation Act 1978 Section 7 as detailed below. I fully complied with this law by sending the V5 registration document to the DVLA on the date of the vehicles disposal by placing the V5 in a stamped, addressed envelope and handing it over to a member of staff at my local Post Office.
Interpretation Act 1978
Section 7
References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
The DVLA guidelines for the sending of a V5 registration document are not within the bounds of this law and as such any civil action is not valid and/or enforceable in the eyes of the law.
P.P.S Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he/she—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself/herself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
P.P.P.S Fraud by failing to disclose information
A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and
(b) Intends, by failing to disclose the information—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
Yesterday I got ths reply in the post.
Dear me,
Thank you for your recent letter addressed to the Secretary of State for Transport, the Rt Hon Philip Hammond MP, regarding enforcement action initiated against you in respect of your vehicle registration number Blah-blah.
I should explain that the Minister cannot reply individually due to the extensive volume of correspondence (just wait a week next Monday then ) recieved in his office and it is, therefore, usual to forward correspondence to the area of the Department for Transport (DfT) responsible for the issue which is of concern to the writer.
Any correspondence recieved by the DfT, which is a matter specifically for the Driver and Vehicle Licencing Agency (DVLA), is redirected to the Agency's Centre of Operations in Swansea for action. Your letter is recieving immediate attention and you will be sent a full reply in due course.
Your sincerely,
An actual human being who works for the DVLA.
Customer Service Team
I'm still in shock to be honnest. I will still be sending a greetings card though feel free to do the same if you're fed up with the DVLA.
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
All the best LK
It took five letters for the DVLA to admit the "SORN Penalty Notice" was not an enforcable "Penalty Notice" or "fine" at all but was a "supplement", "administration charge" or "handling fee". They only admitted it due to being invited to a Magistrates Court for the sake of "due process".
So this was served in accordance to the law a couple of weeks ago.
Mr. Phillip Hammond MP
Secretary of State for Transport
the Palace of Westminster
London
SW1P 3PA
DVLA reference: Blah-blah
Dear Minister,
I have been writing to the DVLAs continuous registrations department and enforcement department concerning a vehicle previously registered to me and my refusal to pay a “fine” for failing declare the vehicle as SORN. This “fine” had been imposed over a year after the vehicle was disposed of and the documents sent to the DVLA in full accordance to the law; therefore the vehicle was no longer legally my responsibility and the “fine” has been issued unlawfully.
In all five of my letters to these departments I have consistently referred to the “SORN Penalty Notice” as a “fine” because of its resemblance to a “Fixed Penalty Notice” issued by the Police. I questioned why I had been issued a “fine” when I had not committed any criminal offence. The language used in replies sent to me “enforcement, constitute a defence, mitigation, evidence, appeal” etc and references to various laws VERA for one compounded the impression given by the DVLA that the “SORN Penalty Notice” was indeed a “fine” and carried legal ramifications should I decide not to pay.
So; in my last letter I invited the DVLA to my local Magistrates court to deal with this situation through the correct and proper channels as there was no evidence of due process with the SORN “fine” system. This was declined; due to the fact and was freely admitted in the last reply I have committed no criminal offence. As well as confirming what I was already well aware of it also proved a point; that the use of the term “Penalty Notice” in relation to the non-declaration of a SORN is completely inappropriate. The DVLA “SORN Penalty Notice” is in actual fact; nothing more than an administration fee or to quote the last reply from Mr Whoop-whoop of the enforcement department;
“a supplement of £80.00 owed to the DVLA”.
This is an obvious case of fraud by false representation section two of the “Fraud Act 2006”. I put it to you that the DVLA have deliberately made the “SORN Penalty Notice” resemble a “Fixed Penalty Notice” or “fine” to mislead and intimidate members of the public into loss or put them at the risk of loss when there is no legal recourse for failing to do so.
The fact it took five letters and five replies to reveal the “SORN Penalty Notice” was not a “fine” at all but in actual fact a “supplement” demonstrates premeditation and a deliberate act on the part of the DVLA employees to withhold this information and not an accidental oversight. This is Fraud by Withholding Information; section three of the “Fraud Act 2006”. If the “SORN Penalty Notice” had been referred to as a “supplement”, handling fee or administration charge in the first reply to my enquiry this would not have been an issue, but the information was withheld deliberately to put someone (myself) at the risk of loss and was only revealed when confronted with the suggestion of appearing before a Magistrate.
I hope you will be able to address this and I do not have to initiate criminal proceedings towards those individuals from the continuous registration and enforcement departments who have been involved so far. Once again DVLA reference:Blah-blah.
I would pursue the Fraud by False Representation in the interests of justice and encourage any other member of the public who has been defrauded by the DVLA to do exactly the same.
The DVLA made over ten million Pounds last year in “SORN Penalty Notices” if these were paid as a result of intimidation and/or fraud then I feel it is my duty to ensure every member of the public who have been affected by this are made well aware. If any member of the public has paid a “SORN Penalty Notice” because the DVLA have been misleading people into believing it to have been a “fine” then they should be entitled to a full refund.
Yours sincerely,
Me
P.S “in full accordance to the law” was in reference to the Interpretation Act 1978 Section 7 as detailed below. I fully complied with this law by sending the V5 registration document to the DVLA on the date of the vehicles disposal by placing the V5 in a stamped, addressed envelope and handing it over to a member of staff at my local Post Office.
Interpretation Act 1978
Section 7
References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
The DVLA guidelines for the sending of a V5 registration document are not within the bounds of this law and as such any civil action is not valid and/or enforceable in the eyes of the law.
P.P.S Fraud by false representation
(1) A person is in breach of this section if he/she—
(a) Dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b) Intends, by making the representation—
(i) To make a gain for himself/herself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2) A representation is false if—
(a) It is untrue or misleading, and
(b) The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3) “Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a) The person making the representation, or
(b) Any other person.
(4) A representation may be express or implied.
(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
P.P.P.S Fraud by failing to disclose information
A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a) Dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and
(b) Intends, by failing to disclose the information—
(i) To make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii) To cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
Yesterday I got ths reply in the post.
Dear me,
Thank you for your recent letter addressed to the Secretary of State for Transport, the Rt Hon Philip Hammond MP, regarding enforcement action initiated against you in respect of your vehicle registration number Blah-blah.
I should explain that the Minister cannot reply individually due to the extensive volume of correspondence (just wait a week next Monday then
) recieved in his office and it is, therefore, usual to forward correspondence to the area of the Department for Transport (DfT) responsible for the issue which is of concern to the writer.Any correspondence recieved by the DfT, which is a matter specifically for the Driver and Vehicle Licencing Agency (DVLA), is redirected to the Agency's Centre of Operations in Swansea for action. Your letter is recieving immediate attention and you will be sent a full reply in due course.
Your sincerely,
An actual human being who works for the DVLA.
Customer Service Team
I'm still in shock to be honnest. I will still be sending a greetings card though feel free to do the same if you're fed up with the DVLA.
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
All the best LK
Edited by Liquid Knight forgot to remove a reference number from the letter .
.Edited by Liquid Knight on Saturday 11th December 13:36
B'stard Child said:
Could you not have added this to your existing threads rather than start another one?
The other thread is about the Bailiffs now. I thought this was a nice polite responce so I started a possitive thread about the DVLA for a change.I know it still doesn't mean anything is going to happen, but the fact it has been put forward to the right department means I may not have to follow the steps I suggested in my letter at least.
DIW35 said:
Be interesting to see what their full reply in due course actually says.
+1In a nutshell the DVLA "SORN Penalty Notice" is not a "Penalty Notice" at all but an admin' fee. So the DVLA have been commiting fraud every time they send one. £10,000,000 per years worth!
The fact it took five letters for the representetives of the DVLA to admit this is another kind of fraud.
So I wrote to the person who is ultimately responsible for the DVLA and politely suggested he looked into it as I wouldn't want any representetives of the DVLA arrested for fraud.
Liquid Knight said:
B'stard Child said:
Could you not have added this to your existing threads rather than start another one?
The other thread is about the Bailiffs now. I thought this was a nice polite responce so I started a possitive thread about the DVLA for a change.I know it still doesn't mean anything is going to happen, but the fact it has been put forward to the right department means I may not have to follow the steps I suggested in my letter at least.
B'stard Child said:
Liquid Knight said:
B'stard Child said:
Could you not have added this to your existing threads rather than start another one?
The other thread is about the Bailiffs now. I thought this was a nice polite responce so I started a possitive thread about the DVLA for a change.I know it still doesn't mean anything is going to happen, but the fact it has been put forward to the right department means I may not have to follow the steps I suggested in my letter at least.
(LK. Ignore the miseries, keep us informed).
Well done
even if I do feel sceptical about you getting any real satisfaction at the end
Live in hope naturally
I feel you did the right thing starting a fresh post
I have read t'others but found I started leaving looking in as the posts gathered verbiage
good luck
edit 'cos atisfaction isn't in my big book of words
even if I do feel sceptical about you getting any real satisfaction at the end
Live in hope naturally
I feel you did the right thing starting a fresh post
I have read t'others but found I started leaving looking in as the posts gathered verbiage
good luck
edit 'cos atisfaction isn't in my big book of words
Edited by perdu on Saturday 11th December 20:28
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