I can see an argument coming on
Discussion
I recently had a graunching noise on full lock (both sides) on my BMW 130i and my local dealer identified it as a belt and tensioner problem and replaced them for the nice little total of around £190.
Within a short period the problem returned and today they have taken it away to investigate again.
Despite me referring to the previous work I can sense from a couple of conversations that they are going to be looking for payment for whatever they do and I am obviously not happy about this. I have not specifically said I'm not paying for anything by the way but neither have I implied that I expect to.
I may be unfairly maligning them (although not difficult to justify maligning BMW dealers) and all may be well but in the event of a stand off, how should I approach this - bearing in mind they have my car as a hostage.
If they do try and charge, one or the other diagnosis was wrong so I would assume that I shouldn't have to pay for it.
What do you reckon?
Within a short period the problem returned and today they have taken it away to investigate again.
Despite me referring to the previous work I can sense from a couple of conversations that they are going to be looking for payment for whatever they do and I am obviously not happy about this. I have not specifically said I'm not paying for anything by the way but neither have I implied that I expect to.
I may be unfairly maligning them (although not difficult to justify maligning BMW dealers) and all may be well but in the event of a stand off, how should I approach this - bearing in mind they have my car as a hostage.
If they do try and charge, one or the other diagnosis was wrong so I would assume that I shouldn't have to pay for it.
What do you reckon?
Marf said:
DavidLScott said:
What do you reckon?
That you should have made clear what your expectations of them were when you dropped the car back the second time 
You'll get somewhere with negotiating on the cost of diagnosis (ie, you already paid for one and clearly it was wrong which isn't your fault) but you'll probably still have to pay for the actual repair.
Marf said:
DavidLScott said:
What do you reckon?
That you should have made clear what your expectations of them were when you dropped the car back the second time Edited by DavidLScott on Monday 13th December 13:21
You're a TVR owner I've been sat here for 10 minutes wondering if I should help you
Four words
Sale of Goods Act.
People do not realise just how powerful this piece of law is to the consumer, dealers are not going to advertise this.
The old story you buy an iphone it stops working 366 days and 2 hours later. In this case SoGA 2002 says it has to be 'sufficiently durable', in short if you've looked after it they have to replace it for up to six years and they say EU rulings aren't good for anything. The best bit is the retailer is the one that has to proove you sat on it in a pub.
Okay with reagrds to your situation, again SoGA 2002 comes into play. in particular we need to focus on 'with reasonable skill and care'. This means both repairs and new additions have to be satisfactory quality. Its more complex than that but the bottom line is they are obliged to pay for the work to be completed. Yes I'm sure they will argue with you and watch the colour drain from them when you mention SoGA, the law is on your side.
How you proceed is your business but this knowledge may help.
Four words
Sale of Goods Act.
People do not realise just how powerful this piece of law is to the consumer, dealers are not going to advertise this.
The old story you buy an iphone it stops working 366 days and 2 hours later. In this case SoGA 2002 says it has to be 'sufficiently durable', in short if you've looked after it they have to replace it for up to six years and they say EU rulings aren't good for anything. The best bit is the retailer is the one that has to proove you sat on it in a pub.
Okay with reagrds to your situation, again SoGA 2002 comes into play. in particular we need to focus on 'with reasonable skill and care'. This means both repairs and new additions have to be satisfactory quality. Its more complex than that but the bottom line is they are obliged to pay for the work to be completed. Yes I'm sure they will argue with you and watch the colour drain from them when you mention SoGA, the law is on your side.
How you proceed is your business but this knowledge may help.
havoc said:
DavidLScott said:
...use intelligent analysis
You've taken it to a main dealer...and you expect intelligence?!?I do get seduced by the collect and deliver system that saves me hours of sitting around.
TheCoolerKing said:
You're a TVR owner I've been sat here for 10 minutes wondering if I should help you
Four words
Sale of Goods Act.
People do not realise just how powerful this piece of law is to the consumer, dealers are not going to advertise this.
The old story you buy an iphone it stops working 366 days and 2 hours later. In this case SoGA 2002 says it has to be 'sufficiently durable', in short if you've looked after it they have to replace it for up to six years and they say EU rulings aren't good for anything. The best bit is the retailer is the one that has to proove you sat on it in a pub.
Okay with reagrds to your situation, again SoGA 2002 comes into play. in particular we need to focus on 'with reasonable skill and care'. This means both repairs and new additions have to be satisfactory quality. Its more complex than that but the bottom line is they are obliged to pay for the work to be completed. Yes I'm sure they will argue with you and watch the colour drain from them when you mention SoGA, the law is on your side.
How you proceed is your business but this knowledge may help.
I thought we should stick together Four words
Sale of Goods Act.
People do not realise just how powerful this piece of law is to the consumer, dealers are not going to advertise this.
The old story you buy an iphone it stops working 366 days and 2 hours later. In this case SoGA 2002 says it has to be 'sufficiently durable', in short if you've looked after it they have to replace it for up to six years and they say EU rulings aren't good for anything. The best bit is the retailer is the one that has to proove you sat on it in a pub.
Okay with reagrds to your situation, again SoGA 2002 comes into play. in particular we need to focus on 'with reasonable skill and care'. This means both repairs and new additions have to be satisfactory quality. Its more complex than that but the bottom line is they are obliged to pay for the work to be completed. Yes I'm sure they will argue with you and watch the colour drain from them when you mention SoGA, the law is on your side.
How you proceed is your business but this knowledge may help.
but thanks for the advice.I'm working on the 'your the alleged experts, you should have fixed it properly the first time' method but without starting off confrontational, which generally doesn't help.
I have made it clear from a conversation with them this morning that it is an ongoing problem that they should have fixed the first time so there has already been an icy silence at their end of the phone.
Doniger said:
Marf said:
DavidLScott said:
What do you reckon?
That you should have made clear what your expectations of them were when you dropped the car back the second time You'll get somewhere with negotiating on the cost of diagnosis (ie, you already paid for one and clearly it was wrong which isn't your fault) but you'll probably still have to pay for the actual repair.
That would give them carte blanche to carry out pointless but vaguely justifiable repairs and then get you to pay for the right one later.
Oh sorry - that's how main dealers work anyway isn't it?
They had 3 attempts at fixing the dangerous cold stalling on my wife's Mini, even refusing to accept there was problem though I actually demonstrated it to them in their compound.
Later got it fixed by a Mini specialist in 20 minutes.
I know its difficult when they have your car held to ransom, but I would always advise people to write to them instead of phoning.
You just have to prove the fault shouldn't occur at this stage of the cars life and quote either Sale of Goods Act 1979 or 2002.
They know the law but it doesn't stop them making millions out of people's ignorance to the laws created to protect them. Ironic
You just have to prove the fault shouldn't occur at this stage of the cars life and quote either Sale of Goods Act 1979 or 2002.
They know the law but it doesn't stop them making millions out of people's ignorance to the laws created to protect them. Ironic
DavidLScott said:
That would give them carte blanche to carry out pointless but vaguely justifiable repairs and then get you to pay for the right one later.
Oh sorry - that's how main dealers work anyway isn't it?
Pretty much Oh sorry - that's how main dealers work anyway isn't it?
I used to be a service advisor, not for BMW mind you, I only sold them. Anyway, they'll probably argue blue in the face that you needed the original repair and that it had to be rectified in order to help diagnose this 'further fault' as they will probably call it. You can knock most of the diagnostic charge off with an argument, the first repair is more difficult to prove as unrequired unless you contest it on the day.
Unless your dealer is especially reasonable the only way you'll get your money back for the original repair is if you get BMW UK involved, play hardball, AND win...which isn't guaranteed. Worth a shot though, if you genuinely think the first repair wasn't needed.
I'm reasonably happy to accept a power steering noise after 5 years and 45k miles, it's the almost inevitable likelihood of them effectively trying to charge me twice to resolve the problem having supposedly sorted it out a couple of months or so ago.
My old E46 330Ci cost me virtually nothing in out of service items for 6 years and 50k miles so the regular niggles of the 130 are annoying me a bit - maybe not in TVR territory yet though.
My old E46 330Ci cost me virtually nothing in out of service items for 6 years and 50k miles so the regular niggles of the 130 are annoying me a bit - maybe not in TVR territory yet though
.TheCoolerKing said:
I know its difficult when they have your car held to ransom, but I would always advise people to write to them instead of phoning.
You just have to prove the fault shouldn't occur at this stage of the cars life and quote either Sale of Goods Act 1979 or 2002.
They know the law but it doesn't stop them making millions out of people's ignorance to the laws created to protect them. Ironic
1979 isnt worht twaddle now as the amendment changed it allYou just have to prove the fault shouldn't occur at this stage of the cars life and quote either Sale of Goods Act 1979 or 2002.
They know the law but it doesn't stop them making millions out of people's ignorance to the laws created to protect them. Ironic
just chuck as above 2002 and they will quiver
I had this with Alarm issues on my old VW; I ended up making a scene on the main dealer's third attempt to charge me to fix the same problem in front of a load of other customers and that seemed to persuade them that letting me not pay "as a gesture" was a good option.
However, this was only after suggesting that if I wasn't going to pay, they would remove the new parts and re-fit the old ones. I liked their generous offer to double the amount of unpaid effort they were putting in. After a little bit of thinking, they decided they no longer liked the idea.
Good indies are worth their weight in gold.
However, this was only after suggesting that if I wasn't going to pay, they would remove the new parts and re-fit the old ones. I liked their generous offer to double the amount of unpaid effort they were putting in. After a little bit of thinking, they decided they no longer liked the idea.
Good indies are worth their weight in gold.
KeyR1 said:
TheCoolerKing said:
I know its difficult when they have your car held to ransom, but I would always advise people to write to them instead of phoning.
You just have to prove the fault shouldn't occur at this stage of the cars life and quote either Sale of Goods Act 1979 or 2002.
They know the law but it doesn't stop them making millions out of people's ignorance to the laws created to protect them. Ironic
1979 isnt worht twaddle now as the amendment changed it allYou just have to prove the fault shouldn't occur at this stage of the cars life and quote either Sale of Goods Act 1979 or 2002.
They know the law but it doesn't stop them making millions out of people's ignorance to the laws created to protect them. Ironic
just chuck as above 2002 and they will quiver
havoc said:
DavidLScott said:
...use intelligent analysis
You've taken it to a main dealer...and you expect intelligence?!?Well....
They reckon the power steering belt is slipping on the alternator pulley which, according to them, means a new alternator
How the hell does that happen in such a short time?
They will waive the diagnostic cost (their offer) and will quote me for the alternator. God knows how much they are and to fit.
Apparently some other poor sod had his water pump repalced as well before they found it to be the water pump.
Should I be taking this up with BMW and, if so, before or after getting it done.
or get another opinion.
But I can't find any independent BMW experts in this part of the south east (I'm Hastings way).
They reckon the power steering belt is slipping on the alternator pulley which, according to them, means a new alternator
How the hell does that happen in such a short time?
They will waive the diagnostic cost (their offer) and will quote me for the alternator. God knows how much they are and to fit.
Apparently some other poor sod had his water pump repalced as well before they found it to be the water pump.
Should I be taking this up with BMW and, if so, before or after getting it done.
or get another opinion.
But I can't find any independent BMW experts in this part of the south east (I'm Hastings way).
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