Bring back grooved tyres?

Bring back grooved tyres?

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Discussion

entropy

Original Poster:

5,499 posts

205 months

Monday 25th November 2013
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Just wondering what people's thoughts on this? I don't think I've come across this being suggested before.

Grooved tyres grain worse than slicks.

I'm not a fan of refuelling. Watching F1 turned into a chess match is not for me and realistically they'll never get rid of those pesky wings.


John D.

18,066 posts

211 months

Monday 25th November 2013
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May as well just bring back skinny tyres.

Vaud

50,984 posts

157 months

Monday 25th November 2013
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No thanks. I'd rather just reduce aero by 50%.

Bill Carr

2,234 posts

236 months

Monday 25th November 2013
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It's a dreadful idea.

AJS-

15,366 posts

238 months

Monday 25th November 2013
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No, simply because they look awful.

Bring in another tyre manufacturer and have them compete to actually build a better tyre.

Vaud

50,984 posts

157 months

Monday 25th November 2013
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AJS- said:
No, simply because they look awful.

Bring in another tyre manufacturer and have them compete to actually build a better tyre.
No tyre wars please.

The forum would be awash with "Vettel only won because xxxxx made him a special tyre" or "Alonso won - even though his tyre were made of cheese" - etc

We should have some variables, but I want them to push the requirement to driver and engineer skill. I like that the engines have become pretty much equal - we see fewer gaps back to front in times (remember the days when quail was 10 seconds front to back?) and closer racing.

pozi

1,723 posts

189 months

Monday 25th November 2013
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AJS- said:
Bring in another tyre manufacturer and have them compete to actually build a better tyre.
Put yourself in Pirelli's shoes, they could make a tyre which lasted the whole race but this would be dull and boring. Instead they were asked to make fragile tyres to spice the racing up but then told they could not test them on the intended F1 cars.

It is like asking a chef to create a banquet for the queen but banning him from tasting anything he is cooking.

If anything I feel sorry for Pirelli, they are damned if you do and damned if they don't.

simonpeter

188 posts

161 months

Monday 25th November 2013
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Vaud said:
No thanks. I'd rather just reduce aero by 50%.
Spot on we need more mechanical grip not less. I often wonder if the old 18 inch slicks were the key to being able to follow another car closely through corners. That is the answer to making F1 cars more of a race car and less of a projectie.

entropy

Original Poster:

5,499 posts

205 months

Monday 25th November 2013
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simonpeter said:
I often wonder if the old 18 inch slicks were the key to being able to follow another car closely through corners. That is the answer to making F1 cars more of a race car and less of a projectie.
It doesn't work like that. How would extra grip combat dirty air? You need significant overspeed to combat the dirty air hence we've ended up with DRS.

entropy

Original Poster:

5,499 posts

205 months

Monday 25th November 2013
quotequote all
Gaz. said:
On the Bridgestone slicks the cars could follow eachother nose to tail for the entire race, even on full tanks in 2010. Sure the tyres were damaged, but it took 10-20 even 30 laps to get to the state the Pirelli's are in with just a few laps of dicing, if that.

Pirelli were asked to make a less durable tyre, they weren't asked to make them out of chocolate.
Bahrain was on the whole regarded as a borefest and many predicted it would be that way for the rest of 2010.

Abu Dhabi was an anti-climax. Alonso stuck behind Petrov - the Russian did little if any defensive manoeuvres - for almost half the race. It was regarded as the nadir for contemporary F1 led to DRS as the answer.

That year's Canadian GP had a green track on race day and the effect was severe graining and degradation and was a highly entertaining race and the blueprint for Pirelli's crap tyres.

simonpeter

188 posts

161 months

Tuesday 26th November 2013
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If you look at the thread you will see that my comment was a response to the suggestion of drastically reducing downforce. Underbody turbulence is the cause of the dirty air, there was far less a problem when it was larger higher rear wings. For years it is loosing clean air to the front wing that has made it impossible to follow closely through fast corners. So we are talking greater maechanical grip to replace underbody aero.
entropy said:
It doesn't work like that. How would extra grip combat dirty air? You need significant overspeed to combat the dirty air hence we've ended up with DRS.

scubadude

2,618 posts

199 months

Tuesday 26th November 2013
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Halve the aero, force them to have 250ltr tanks and all cars start full tanks and run on hard tyres and stop with crappy brakes.

Will force them to drive hard (to burn the fuel and heat the tyres) and close (less aero) for the whole race, no need for pit stops and artificial passing, you'd have to drive past each other aided by sh*t brakes which would extend the braking zone giving more chance for them to get their elbows out.

Oh and they should have 1300hp V12 and the tracks should have sprinklers :-)

mrmr96

13,736 posts

206 months

Tuesday 26th November 2013
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scubadude said:
Halve the aero, force them to have 250ltr tanks and all cars start full tanks and run on hard tyres and stop with crappy brakes.

Will force them to drive hard (to burn the fuel and heat the tyres) and close (less aero) for the whole race, no need for pit stops and artificial passing, you'd have to drive past each other aided by sh*t brakes which would extend the braking zone giving more chance for them to get their elbows out.

Oh and they should have 1300hp V12 and the tracks should have sprinklers :-)
And missiles?

Lol. Actually, I do like some of those ideas...

PhillipM

6,524 posts

191 months

Tuesday 26th November 2013
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Vaud said:
No tyre wars please.

The forum would be awash with "Vettel only won because xxxxx made him a special tyre" or "Alonso won - even though his tyre were made of cheese" - etc
So it's fine that the Aero has an absolutely massive influence - the main thing that's stopping us having some close racing - but that the suspension, tyres and engines are relegated to second rate systems?

entropy

Original Poster:

5,499 posts

205 months

Tuesday 26th November 2013
quotequote all
simonpeter said:
If you look at the thread you will see that my comment was a response to the suggestion of drastically reducing downforce. Underbody turbulence is the cause of the dirty air, there was far less a problem when it was larger higher rear wings. For years it is loosing clean air to the front wing that has made it impossible to follow closely through fast corners. So we are talking greater maechanical grip to replace underbody aero.
entropy said:
It doesn't work like that. How would extra grip combat dirty air? You need significant overspeed to combat the dirty air hence we've ended up with DRS.
Downforce creates drag. It's the wings that creates the most turbulence, not the underbody. There is less of a drag penalty from ground effects.

It's debatable whether the return to slicks have helped, if at all.

Narrower tyres? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPh90yNX-mY

FiremanRob

60 posts

127 months

Tuesday 26th November 2013
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ash73 said:
Why ground-effect was banned here
Very sorry off topic, but I could watch a Lotus 79 going around all on its own for a whole race distance.
I will go back in my box now.....sorry

entropy

Original Poster:

5,499 posts

205 months

Tuesday 26th November 2013
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ash73 said:
Why ground-effect was banned here
Indycars, Sportscars, GP2 use grounds effect

simonpeter

188 posts

161 months

Wednesday 27th November 2013
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We don`t have ground effects in F1, just rear difusers. Indycars with ground effects can still follow each other through fast corners, they also have barn door rear wings. Rear difusers only give rear end grip, that is why F1 cars understeer when they get close to a car in front.

simonpeter

188 posts

161 months

Wednesday 27th November 2013
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Actually thinking about it when we had full ground effects in F1 didnt we have the Brabham and Williams running without front wings?

entropy

Original Poster:

5,499 posts

205 months

Wednesday 27th November 2013
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simonpeter said:
Rear difusers only give rear end grip, that is why F1 cars understeer when they get close to a car in front.
Winged cars, cars that create a significant amount of downforce will understeer more when they follow each other.

In the 70s F1 drivers talking about the imbalance of the car when following a car; in the Super Touring era of Touring Cars the cars suffered more understeer when following a car; in NASCAR they call this phenomenon Aero Push.

The aficionados will correct me but it seems it is less of a problem in sportscars.