WDC vs WCC ...it's the car

[angrymoby]

Quite a few threads have mentioned, that it's not the driver ...it's the car, so thought i'd have a look at the list of (recent'ish) drivers who have won in a non WCC car, quite surprising really (you've only got a 13% chance!)

2008- Hamilton (WCC- Ferrari)
1999- Häkkinen (WCC- Ferrari)
1994- Schumacher (WCC- Williams)
1986- Prost (WCC- Williams)

Shows how rare it actually is & that yes, just get yerself in a WCC car & make sure you beat your team mate

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 5th March 09:13

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 5th March 09:29

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 5th March 10:42

[P-Jay]

I'm probably wrong, but weren't McLaren disqualified from the WCC in 2008 for 'Ferrari-Gate'?

[angrymoby]

P-Jay said:

I'm probably wrong, but weren't McLaren disqualified from the WCC in 2008 for 'Ferrari-Gate'?

yes they were, but were 2nd anyway (151 points to Ferrari's 172)

[Vocal Minority]

Also what was Prost driving in 1986 if not a McLaren?

[angrymoby]

Vocal Minority said:

Also what was Prost driving in 1986 if not a McLaren?

& the WCC in '86 were Williams weren't they

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 5th March 10:43

[Agent Orange]

angrymoby said:

1994- Schumacher (WCC- Williams)

Let's not forget Senna died during the 1994 season and Williams started the next race with just Damon Hill who then retired from the race after colliding with Häkkinen on the first lap or two.

Coulthard came in for Senna but Mansell drove a few races for Williams that season too. That season Williams had their points spread across 4 drivers.

But regardless given that Schumacher beat Hill (the support driver to Senna) by just a single point in 1994 the expectation would have been either Senna would have won in 1994 or been able to support Hill to win by taking points from Schumacher. And let's also not forget how Schumacher won in Adelaide to win the WDC by punting off Hill.

[angrymoby]

Agent Orange said:

Let's not forget Senna died during the 1994 season and Williams started the next race with just Damon Hill who then retired from the race after colliding with Häkkinen on the first lap or two.

Coulthard came in for Senna but Mansell drove a few races for Williams that season too. That season Williams had their points spread across 4 drivers.

But regardless given that Schumacher beat Hill (the support driver to Senna) by just a single point in 1994 the expectation would have been either Senna would have won in 1994 or been able to support Hill to win by taking points from Schumacher. And let's also not forget how Schumacher won in Adelaide to win the WDC by punting off Hill.

To me that highlights just how good the Williams car became that year (still winning the WCC & Hill missing out on the WDC by a point) ...& that Schumi drove his socks off.

But yes, had Senna not died then it was probable that Williams would've bagged both WDC & WCC (& i think we'd all agree it more likely that Senna would have taken his 4th WDC out of the 2 Williams drivers)

[Derek Smith]

In the 86 season, the Williams had Mansell (2nd) and Piquet (3rd) in the car. The Williams won twice as many GPs as the McL and Mansell was just two points behind Prost and Piquet 1 point further back. As a big McL fan it hurts me to remember that had Mansell's tyre not blown, and had he not been so clever at controlling the car and instead stuffed it into a wall, he would have been WDC. But that's motor racing.

[angrymoby]

Derek Smith said:

In the 86 season, the Williams had Mansell (2nd) and Piquet (3rd) in the car. The Williams won twice as many GPs as the McL and Mansell was just two points behind Prost and Piquet 1 point further back. As a big McL fan it hurts me to remember that had Mansell's tyre not blown, and had he not been so clever at controlling the car and instead stuffed it into a wall, he would have been WDC. But that's motor racing.

re: Mansell, I just don't it's in the British psyche to think that way, or if they do carry it out successfully ...thinking about some of Damon's 'punt's' or Hamilton's uncomfortable press interview after Melbourne ...or we're just st at cheating

[Justaredbadge]

So the best chance for anyone to win the WDC is.if the best team splits the wins between them and doesn't nominate a lead driver and then the next best will be able to pick up the pieces.

i still reckon Ferrari for the wcc, but i don't think alonso or raikkonen will finish in the top 3 in the WDC.

[Vocal Minority]

angrymoby said:

Vocal Minority said:

Also what was Prost driving in 1986 if not a McLaren?

& the WCC in '86 were Williams weren't they

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 5th March 10:43

subterfuge!

[Agent Orange]

I can't see beyond a Mercedes 1-2 in every race right now so I have Mercedes for the WCC. But Niko and Lewis could end up taking too many points off each other in the early part of the season until team orders come into play.

A "number 1" driver in a decent team consistently getting on the podium then could be the dark horse for the WDC.

We might end up with Alonso and Massa fighting for the WDC in the early part of the season because the Williams looks strong.

[angrymoby]

Vocal Minority said:

subterfuge!

[angrymoby]

Agent Orange said:

I can't see beyond a Mercedes 1-2 in every race right now so I have Mercedes for the WCC. But Niko and Lewis could end up taking too many points off each other in the early part of the season until team orders come into play.

A "number 1" driver in a decent team consistently getting on the podium then could be the dark horse for the WDC.

We might end up with Alonso and Massa fighting for the WDC in the early part of the season because the Williams looks strong.

I kind of agree with you, but reckon the Merc boys will have racked up so many points by half way through the season I doubt anyone will catch either of them ...& I'm going with Hamilton mainly due to his record against his team mates

[//j17]

angrymoby said:

Quite a few threads have mentioned, that it's not the driver ...it's the car...Shows how rare it actually is & that yes, just get yerself in a WCC car & make sure you beat your team mate

Stop abusing statistics! All this does is show a statistical assosiation, not causation.

Since drivers usually drive for the same manufacturer for the whole season every time the driver wins and gets 25 points so does the team. If one car is good-enough to win the sister car should be too and if the team can afford one driver good-enough to win they can probably afford two. As a result you will tend to find both drivers scoring strong manufacturers points over a season and fighting one another over drivers points, leading to one driver+team winning the two titles being the most likely situation.

For this NOT to happen you really need a top team with only one good driver. They may win all the races (25pts) and win the drivers title but if another team comes 2nd and 3rd in every race (33pts) they will take the constructors title.

[Pumajay]

interesting stat..

[angrymoby]

//j17 said:

Stop abusing statistics! All this does is show a statistical assosiation, not causation.

Since drivers usually drive for the same manufacturer for the whole season every time the driver wins and gets 25 points so does the team. If one car is good-enough to win the sister car should be too and if the team can afford one driver good-enough to win they can probably afford two. As a result you will tend to find both drivers scoring strong manufacturers points over a season and fighting one another over drivers points, leading to one driver+team winning the two titles being the most likely situation.

For this NOT to happen you really need a top team with only one good driver. They may win all the races (25pts) and win the drivers title but if another team comes 2nd and 3rd in every race (33pts) they will take the constructors title.

fair comment, but your scenario is only applicable to 1 of those seasons ...2008

& it also doesn't explain that Red Bull have won both WCC & WDC with just one 'top' driver