F1 US Grand Prix at Indianapolis 2005

[woof]

Came across the spectator video from the US GP at Indianapolis 2005
Never really saw how pissed off the crowd was - pretty pissed !

It's a surprised F1 was ever able to come back from that.

There's also a letter from Paul Stoddart here, which makes interesting reading http://www.andysvideo.com/PAUL2.pdf

Edited by woof on Thursday 6th November 14:23

[HarryFlatters]

Thank you for posting this, it makes for very interesting reading considering who is the current head of the FIA.

[Fortitude]

I was looking back at some of the old F1 races and with all the restrictions on fans not being able watch F1 races live, I found some of the You Tube clips of the F1 US Grand Prix at Indianapolis 2005 and this thread… ...even now, when you look back, it seems incredible what happened, in fact you couldn't write a movie script for it and think it that would happen in real life... ...but it did...



F1 US Grand Prix at Indianapolis 2005 (The GP that went very wrong!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs32fA3udDE


Gridwalk USA GP 2005

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAHsKh97sGo


2005 Formula 1 USGP Farce at Indianapolis - A fans view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EX8RGyxuKU


Interview with Paul Stoddart during Indianapolis 2005

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY7IdWpqYXI


F1 USA 2005 - Warm up + First lap

Michael Le 6 months ago •
1:11 Guenther Steiner in a Red Bull Racing outfit

Elodie _ 1 month ago •
1:10 wait that’s Guenther Steiner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VZ6dJCgDFo

[Eric Mc]

If I can pinpoint a moment when my enthusiasm for F1 began to fade it would be that race. It was an utter disgrace and no one came out of it well.

[Fortitude]

Eric Mc said:

If I can pinpoint a moment when my enthusiasm for F1 began to fade it would be that race. It was an utter disgrace and no one came out of it well.

…I know how you feel. There is total ruthlessness about the ‘sport’, that would rather see its own self destruction, rather than come to a sensible compromise…

[Sandpit Steve]

That was F1’s worst day since Imola ‘94.

Remember watching the start live, thinking what the hell just happened there. Then tuning out for the next hour and a half.

How everyone involved got out of Indianapolis alive, I don’t know.

[TwentyFive]

Sandpit Steve said:

That was F1’s worst day since Imola ‘94.

I think that unwanted accolade would be far better suited for the unfortunate marshals killed at Melbourne 2001, Monza 2001 or of course Jules Bianchi.

This was however, I agree an massive PR disaster.

I finished reading Max Mosley's book recently (very good by the way) and he covers Indy 2005 in great detail. He laid out a very reasonable explanation for why the FIA took the stance they did and that the blame really lay with the F1 teams themselves who would not budge despite multiple options being provided to them by the FIA.

[Europa1]

TwentyFive said:

I think that unwanted accolade would be far better suited for the unfortunate marshals killed at Melbourne 2001, Monza 2001 or of course Jules Bianchi.

And not forgetting Maria di Villota.

[Fortitude]

TwentyFive said:

I finished reading Max Mosley's book recently (very good by the way) and he covers Indy 2005 in great detail. He laid out a very reasonable explanation for why the FIA took the stance they did and that the blame really lay with the F1 teams themselves who would not budge despite multiple options being provided to them by the FIA.

TwentyFive, thanks for the 'heads up' on the Max Mosley book and the explanation from him.

Found a You Tube video explaining some of the 'political' details, plus MANY interesting comments from some spectators who were there that day...

The Worst Formula 1 Race: The 2005 United States Grand Prix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl2n6FjuyPI

Tyvek Homewrap 2 months ago •
Just gotta say huge props to Michelin throughout this whole thing. They were the ones initiating the compromises and then they ended up issuing the refunds. Way to step up for what should be the sanctioning body's job.

Matt Carty 1 week ago •
I was at this race, I don’t recall the police having an issue. We asked a state trooper on the way out if this was a problem, he said: ‘We get 400,000 people for Indy car and nascar. This is a small crowd and much better behaved even with all this going on.’

BadAssEngineering 2 months ago •
Ermagherd, Guenther Steiner at 3:17 I can almost hear him saying to Ecclestone: No, Bernie, we will look like a bunch of wkers

Geoffrey Wozniak 2 months ago •
I remember going to this race with my dad when I was younger, our seats were in turn 13. We watched all the cars drive into the pit lane and everyone was pissed. We left after about 10 laps because the colorful criticism of the race by other fans was apparently too much for my youthful ears.

Keegan Schneider 2 months ago •
I swear that the FIA have never actually watched any motorsports race ever. I mean how do you tell a race car driver of any kind to to slow down 20-30 MPH in a high speed corner. Plus, using one set of tires for an entire race, is probably the worst rule I have ever heard of. That is just putting a driver at more danger especially in an open wheel Formula 1 car

Abdul Qadir 2 weeks ago •
After dreaming a life long to one day watch a F1 live and gathering my hard earned savings I travel from Florida to Indy all excited and adrenaline pumping on that fateful and pitiful day of June 2005 only to witness this econopolitical disaster. Honestly after that I lost interest on F1, however i still have that ticket stub and some other cheap souvenirs from the historic track to comfort my utter disappointment.

Tanya Paniagua 2 months ago •
I was there. I bought tickets for my whole family. As soon as we got there, my dad had a feeling something was out of the ordinary especially when seeing all of Indiana's state police presence (which was more than usual). Once the crowd realized what was happening, people were pissed. Some began throwing beer cups onto the track. There was lots of booing, but once the Ferrari's passed through, fans were cheering. My family didn't stay long out of fear that a riot was going to take place. I've gone to IMS many times and this was the only time I left before the race finished. We didn't go back until 2007. I didn't think the US would ever host a GP until 2012 at the Circuit of the Americas in Austin.

Azzy The Dreemurr 2 months ago •
there were a lot of proposals from the teams and Michelin to solve the problem: a chicane, run turn 13 in double yellow flag (forcing all drivers to slow down), that all happened because Max Mosley said everything was illegal and stuff. also, just a little correction, Kimi Raikkonnen's tyre didn't blew on the last lap of the European Grand Prix, the flat spot on the tyre caused a lot of vibration and the suspension just didn't handle that, so the suspension failed because of the tyre, but the tyre was mostly intact. that caused a rule change that stated if your tyres are not on safe condition, you can come down pit lane and change them.

Park Digwig 3 days ago •
I was there. Heard the whole thing in the scanner as I was sitting there. Michelin got on the radio and had broadcasted their phone number- and then said OOPS! Maybe we shouldn’t have said that over the air. I moved from crappy seats to end of the pit lane golds! For me...it was a GREAT race. Had great seats and Ferrari won...and I got my money back for the tickets.

slow ride716 2 months ago •
I was there that day. My first and only f1 i had ever been too. This video can not hold a lite candle to the actual experience. It was an absolutely terrifying experience being there in person. Non the less good video posted here.

DannyDotCom 2 months ago •
God I really hate Max Mosley for that 2005 regulation. I still do today.... That 2005 no tire change rule was the stupidest idea that ever came out from FIA. It was basically a rule that clearly tried to single-handedly break the unstoppable Ferrari + Bridgestone combo that came out fresh with Schumi winning 13 out 18 races in 2004. It was the absolute worst.... Kimi Raikkonen's suspension failure at Nurburgring due to his Michelin tires ripped apart to pieces should've been the signal to call off that rule immediately....

DaylightDigital 2 months ago •
This was the first F1 race I ever went to, and even with the drama I was still immediately hooked on the performance and engineering of these outrageous machines. Been a hardcore fan ever since!

Benjamin Smith 2 months ago •
I remember watching this, F1 was gaining some solid momentum thanks to Speed channel showing all the races in the US combined with Michael Schumacher's unbelievable run during that time. The walkout effectively killed interest in F1. American Motorsports fans felt extremely betrayed and some still do.

Donald Cepek 2 months ago •
I was there! My dad and I had NO IDEA any of this drama was going on until the Michelin teams all pulled into the pit after the formation lap. What weird day that was.

Robert Brumm 1 month ago (edited) •
I was at Indy for this race. I've never seen anything quite like it on raceday. The replacement tickets we got courtesy of Michelin have become a shrine on our wall- because we didn't go back the next year...

jdubvdub 2 months ago •
I was at every USGP at Indy and this is the race I remember the best.

31186dan 2 months ago •
I was there! Couldn’t believe it! Man the cars sounded awesome though.

KingofAntarctica 1 month ago •
I will always remember this race. My dad gave me the option of going to the USGP or the Nascar race in Michigan that weekend and I chose wrong. The only reason we stayed until the end was because our seats were right next to the podium and I knew I would get to see Schumacher.

Chris Laird 1 month ago •
I was at this race, my second one. Sitting right across from pit in and it blew my mind watching all the cars pull into pit right in front of me.

[DoubleD]

Eric Mc said:

If I can pinpoint a moment when my enthusiasm for F1 began to fade it would be that race. It was an utter disgrace and no one came out of it well.

Youve missed some great races then.

[Otispunkmeyer]

So, what actually happened because my memory is well fuzzy on this...

I presume there was some kind of idea that would allow the Michelin runners to actually race...but what was it? Was it them donning Bridgestones for a race?

[StevieBee]

Otispunkmeyer said:

So, what actually happened because my memory is well fuzzy on this...

I presume there was some kind of idea that would allow the Michelin runners to actually race...but what was it? Was it them donning Bridgestones for a race?

The solution approved by teams, drivers, Bernie and the promoter was to install a chicane made from tyres ahead of the turn that was causing the issue. This would have forced the cars to slow at a critical point and carrying around the turn at a lesser speed thus eliminating the problem. They'd done this before at races following Imola in '94 ahead of turns deemed too dangerous. Looked unsightly but had the desired effect. They were dangerous in their own right but less so than the danger they were intended to eliminate.

The FIA said no. Their reason was that course of the circuit would have changed from that on which the drivers qualified which was not permitted under some such article for which there was no leave to accommodate extraneous circumstances. They also said it would have disadvantaged the teams that didn't have any issue (The Michelin runners; Ferrari and Jordan). They allowed the race to go ahead stating that drivers had free will and could navigate any corner at any speed they felt appropriate.... 'nobody forces them to run though the turn flat out'.

Most, if not all the drivers were up for racing but the teams united in what they believed was another example of FIA favouritism towards Ferrari.

There was a moment in the race when Barrichello nearly slid into Schummacher. The joy that would have come from both Ferraris failing to finish a four horse race with a mid-field team would - I think - have been wonderful.

[TheDeuce]

I remember watching this on TV. The upset was so great that the cameras were able to pick out Ferrari fans actually booing Shumi! They didn't want THAT win, they wanted an actual race ahead of a win. And still, even after the other nonsense leading to the race being technically 'started', it looked a lot like the team also manipulated a shumi win too. It was all just too much for any F1 fan, even if they happened to also be a Ferrari fan, to accept.

At least things are different these days - no special treatment in Ferrari's favour.. No treatment at all, other than closed doors deals

That wasn't a day that turned me off F1, although it did raise some important questions. It was however the day that I stopped thinking Ferrari were impressive. Mercedes are impressive, Ferrari are just slightly gittish - which obviously used to work for them sometimes... but actually hasn't worked for them for a very long time now.

[Fortitude]

TheDeuce said:

I remember watching this on TV. The upset was so great that the cameras were able to pick out Ferrari fans actually booing Shumi! They didn't want THAT win, they wanted an actual race ahead of a win. And still, even after the other nonsense leading to the race being technically 'started', it looked a lot like the team also manipulated a shumi win too. It was all just too much for any F1 fan, even if they happened to also be a Ferrari fan, to accept.

IMHO, this account pulls NO punches...

Paul Stoddart’s account of the 2005 United States Grand Prix
F1 history
Posted on
19th June 2020, 12:23 | Written by Dieter Rencken

https://www.racefans.net/2020/06/19/paul-stoddarts...

[entropy]

Eric Mc said:

If I can pinpoint a moment when my enthusiasm for F1 began to fade it would be that race. It was an utter disgrace and no one came out of it well.

It was one badly handled weekend and the sport managed to move on from it in an era of intense media scrutiny.

Having recently been reading about F1 history can you imagine how the sport of F1 would have suffered if we had scrutiny of today occurring during the FISA-FOCA war of the early 1980s? Incompetency in administering and enforcing of rules accompanied by blatant cheating, half the grid turning up, drivers going on strike; out of which came the Concorde Agreement which the sport is still suffering with.

And some would say it better yesteryear when drivers were men and traffic cones more useful than circuit marshalls.

[Derek Smith]

It was an appalling decision. It was, some have suggested, Mosley's attempt to show that he wasn't Ecclestone's lapdog. It was part of F1's attempt to become established in the USA, for the sake of those putting money into it. Mosley showed contempt for the important people in the sport, as well as for the spectators. It beggars belief that someone could be so idiotic.

I found his book, about a disastrous period for F1, to be nothing more than a fantasy, weaved from conceit.

There's a whole catalogue of errors that eroded the popularity not only of F1 but other motorsports. It was lucky that the sport survived.

Todt is not, perhaps, my choice as replacement, other than anybody would be an improvement of course, but given what he was left with, the residue of F1, and little income from the sport, given away, it seems, in a moment of largess, he's done a decent enough job. The FIA is underfunded, and probably worse off now given Covid-19, but it's atmosphere seems better. Commentators don't seem afraid of their jobs if they make a comment about their great leader for one.

Indianapolis was a failure. If an organisation, or at least its boss, couldn't come up with a better idea than that, they need to be got rid of. And he was of course. The theory was that the revelations about his dungeons and buying women for sex is what put the sport against him, but my bet is Indianapolis. It hurt the big companies, wanting to get a way into the USA. Follow the money.

I was at Le Mans and asked people involved in racing who the head of the ACO was. Nobody knew. One said Jaques Lafitte. That, I think, showed what a proper boss of an organisation should be.

[Fortitude]

Derek Smith said:

Indianapolis was a failure. If an organisation, or at least its boss, couldn't come up with a better idea than that, they need to be got rid of. And he was of course. The theory was that the revelations about his dungeons and buying women for sex is what put the sport against him, but my bet is Indianapolis. It hurt the big companies, wanting to get a way into the USA. Follow the money.

VERY interesting points you make here in this paragraph Derek.

The FINAL paragraph from this article;

FORMULA 1 / UNITED STATES GP / ANALYSIS
The blame game - 2005 United States GP at Indianapolis

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-blame-game-...

“That bastion of independent Formula One teams, Mr. Paul Stoddart of Minardi has requested Max Mosley step down from his post of the FIA. Most likely Mosley didn’t hear Stoddart’s plea – it’s obvious he listens only to the sound of his own voice.”

When you wrote, “Follow the money”, I am sure there is an intriguing 'subplot’… ..to be told... ...revealed, some day perhaps...

[Derek Smith]

Fortitude said:

Derek Smith said:

Indianapolis was a failure. If an organisation, or at least its boss, couldn't come up with a better idea than that, they need to be got rid of. And he was of course. The theory was that the revelations about his dungeons and buying women for sex is what put the sport against him, but my bet is Indianapolis. It hurt the big companies, wanting to get a way into the USA. Follow the money.

VERY interesting points you make here in this paragraph Derek.

The FINAL paragraph from this article;

FORMULA 1 / UNITED STATES GP / ANALYSIS
The blame game - 2005 United States GP at Indianapolis

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-blame-game-...

“That bastion of independent Formula One teams, Mr. Paul Stoddart of Minardi has requested Max Mosley step down from his post of the FIA. Most likely Mosley didn’t hear Stoddart’s plea – it’s obvious he listens only to the sound of his own voice.”

When you wrote, “Follow the money”, I am sure there is an intriguing 'subplot’… ..to be told... ...revealed, some day perhaps...

I got into a conversation via email with a writer on an F1 website, and in an F1 magazine, the latter since defunct, following Indianapolis and he said that Mosley would be blocked from standing in the following election, that's 2009(?) and that his authority would be undermined before that. You can't argue with prediction. Mind you, there was the dungeon and buying women for sex that came as a bit of a surprise, and the mishandling of the Stepneygate fiasco. There was, I was told, no going back from that.

He was called a megalomaniac by one of the bosses from Ferrari, and even I believed he'd not make it then, although Mosley reckoned he was still in line for the top job.

I doubt there will be any revelations in years to come. He's of passing interest now, a footnote. He was very similar in performance, and history, with Balestre, although the latter was self-made, and Mosley somewhat wasn't. Ask most people about Balestre nowadays and there would be a look of confusion crossing their face. A few, very few, years time and it'd be the same for Mosley. Even his TV interviews have dried and it would appear he's no longer the go-to mouth for all things F1.

I'd like to know the full SP of the 'loss' of income from F1. What was the reasoning behind that? Very confusing.

There was a chap on PitpassF1 who wrote in very good English, so not a natural for the role, who went for Mosley's throat over the accusations regarding the German uniforms, especially the striped garb, worn by some in Mosley's dungeon. He was not best pleased with Eady's decision. All of a sudden, it seemed, he was no longer published on F1 websites.

Last I heard MM was suing Google. Like you do.

There was a funny episode with regards to Stepneygate. The FIA issued a redacted precis of their decision with regards to what they suggested was McLaren's use of parts from the Ferrari plans, although even MM had to later admit in a way he was wrong on that. I downloaded the Word .doc. A friend of mine sent me the unredacted (deliberately chosen over 'full') version and I asked him where he had got it from. It seems the FIA had merely blacked out the sections using the colouring tool in Word. I'd been sitting on the full version for some days without realising it. I'd obviously not tried to change the colour because no one would have been stupid enough to think that would be enough. Almost no one as it turned out. I was really irritated. I'd been fuming for days as rumours of what the redacted text said.

I was asked to write an article, about 2000 words if memory serves, on Stepneygate. I can't remember the details but it had lots of references. It was refused on the grounds that it might cause 'problems'. The fact that most of it was sourced from easily obtainable documents wasn't felt sufficient protection. I got paid, so not a total loss, but it meant that I couldn't publish it. It seems people were running scared. I've got it archived. I might dig it out.

UPDATE: The subject of the article was Ecclestone and mentioned a phone-throwing tirade when MM wouldn't use good sense at Indianapolis. It didn't mention Stepneygate.

Edited by Derek Smith on Sunday 26th July 12:27

[Fortitude]

Derek Smith said:

I got into a conversation via email with a writer on an F1 website, and in an F1 magazine, the latter since defunct, following Indianapolis and he said that Mosley would be blocked from standing in the following election, that's 2009(?) and that his authority would be undermined before that. You can't argue with prediction. Mind you, there was the dungeon and buying women for sex that came as a bit of a surprise, and the mishandling of the Stepneygate fiasco. There was, I was told, no going back from that.

Derek,

Fascinating and jaw dropping information… …and that is just the FIRST paragraph…

IMHO, you could DEFINITELY make a film/docu-drama about the 2005 US Grand Prix at Indianapolis Grand Prix, the events building up to it, the fiasco that day, then the fall out of getting rid of Max Mosley… …it would, IMHO, be epic… …and that just from the first paragraph alone…

For me personally, F1 IS ABOUT all the politics, the intrigue, the fallouts, the triumphs and the shambles…

…the shambles of Max Mosley being authoritative down the telephone, in some ways, far removed from reality, hundreds of miles away on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, while the crowds gathered at the Brick Yard… …it is that quality of the first Dumb and Dumber film (which made millions at the Cinemas)…

I recall reading an account from a Spectator, not long after the 2005 US Grand Prix at Indianapolis Grand Prix, who realised that being there that day, was participating in one of those unique ‘shambolic sporting occasions’, that would be remembered and watched it with that thought in mind…


What you have written Derek, in the other paragraphs, are definitely intriguing 'subplots’… …which are fascinating ‘snippets’ in the history of Formula 1.

Derek, when you read accounts like this on Pistonheads, it makes it all the worthwhile to contribute, participate and discuss what is going on. Thank you.

[Derek Smith]

Fortitude said:

Derek, when you read accounts like this on Pistonheads, it makes it all the worthwhile to contribute, participate and discuss what is going on. Thank you.

Thanks for that. I was well into F1 in those days and ran fanzine websites. Small beer, only managing a top of a bit over 900 unique visitors a day. Never managed the magic 1k. Once the visits went up, I used to get cease and desist emails regarding the use of F1 in the URL. I couldn't fathom whether they were real or not, but couldn't take the chance.

I used to have fake telephone interviews with famous people, once suggesting that I called McLaren. Dennis answered and said I had an interview booked with Coulthard. Dennis didn't know who he was. I said he was a driver, and he said that Coulthard didn't sound like a Scandinavian name. And such like that. Or the visit to the Ferrari motorhome to speak with whoever, and I mentioned how the floor of the awning moved as I walked on it. I was thrown out I said. I used to get emails purporting to be from readers who thought the interviews were for real. I didn't believe they were fooled and would reply as if I had spoken with whoever. Then their replies were bemusing if they were just having fun. For the next URL I removed the subheading 'Ferrari Sycophant Free Zone' and replaced it with 'All the facts before they happen'; pretty obvious you might think, but I still got the occasional confused correspondence.

And talking of confusion, the article I mentioned that was rejected was about Ecclestone. Unlike most of my posts, it wasn't my opinion, but what others had said about him, and normally quite well respected correspondents. But not enough to be posted on a website where the writers needed their pit passes - not a hint as to the website.

I always consider starting another fanzine at the start of a season, but it was an awful lot of work with 15 races, let alone 21 (remember those days?). I was an avid follower of Cygnet F1 but the author turned into a swan and stopped updating. But it was fun. There does seem to be a lack of fun around in F1 forums nowadays. You can post something that's as obviously not meant to be taken 100% literally, perhaps only for a discussion point, and some of the comments take me back to the days of my fanzines. Shame. I've had a post on here removed for quoting the heading of an article in an F1 magazine. It was a double entendre, in poor taste, but I'm surprised it was found offensive. Unless you were German.

Perhaps we're no longer allowed to have fun?