Does the Brackley team NEED Mercedes Benz?
Discussion
Question: how good could the Brackley F1 team be without Mercedes Benz?
Suppose Toto Wolff had bought the team from Ross Braun with investment from McDonalds, or Coca Cola, or any others non motor manufacturer with vast wealth to throw at a vanity project. Could Wolff F1 have been as successful?
It’s not a completely fanciful idea. The Brackley team was already in place. Mercedes could have stayed as a customer supplier. Red Bull proved that it can be done with the right elements in place.
Thoughts?
Suppose Toto Wolff had bought the team from Ross Braun with investment from McDonalds, or Coca Cola, or any others non motor manufacturer with vast wealth to throw at a vanity project. Could Wolff F1 have been as successful?
It’s not a completely fanciful idea. The Brackley team was already in place. Mercedes could have stayed as a customer supplier. Red Bull proved that it can be done with the right elements in place.
Thoughts?
I think...
Mercedes (the company) spend insane amounts of money on R&D, and as a result their product range is huge and innovation is a massive part of their brand. That philosophy seems to be passed down to the F1 team.
The halo effect of winning in F1 is also valuable enough for the main group to support their F1 endeavours in any way required to excel.
Toto himself is also 'the right man' for the job. He has the coolness of a man that isn't so much fighting a battle with his fingers crossed for a result, but simply waiting for the expected result having put all the pieces together to achieve it. He's a totally focussed operator with unlimited resources (money and expertise) available to his team. A lot of that resource likely comes as a result of the team being backed by a car manufacturer. There can't be a problem that the F1 team will ever face that can't helped in some way by the attachment to such a large car manufacturer.
Mercedes (the company) spend insane amounts of money on R&D, and as a result their product range is huge and innovation is a massive part of their brand. That philosophy seems to be passed down to the F1 team.
The halo effect of winning in F1 is also valuable enough for the main group to support their F1 endeavours in any way required to excel.
Toto himself is also 'the right man' for the job. He has the coolness of a man that isn't so much fighting a battle with his fingers crossed for a result, but simply waiting for the expected result having put all the pieces together to achieve it. He's a totally focussed operator with unlimited resources (money and expertise) available to his team. A lot of that resource likely comes as a result of the team being backed by a car manufacturer. There can't be a problem that the F1 team will ever face that can't helped in some way by the attachment to such a large car manufacturer.
Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 16th April 07:35
Far too complex a 'what if' as there are many factors: personnel, factory, politics, finances, suppliers etc, every single one of those is influenced by Mercedes being part of that picture.
Toyota proved that money, a car manufacturer and a decent factory alone are nowhere near enough to be a successful F1 team, on the flip side Force India have done pretty remarkable things on a relative shoestring that other teams with bigger budgets haven't managed.
Toyota proved that money, a car manufacturer and a decent factory alone are nowhere near enough to be a successful F1 team, on the flip side Force India have done pretty remarkable things on a relative shoestring that other teams with bigger budgets haven't managed.
I think that the answer, in theory, is yes.
MB bought Brawn for €100 million and achieved nothing for 3-years. So poor were their results that Norbert Haugh fell on his sword. Brawn then cherry picked their key personnel for every department, including Toto, before leaving himself.
During that transition MB invested €millions more to make the team what it is today. I am sure that Toto could now raise sufficient finances for an MBO, if MB wanted to quit.
But it was the risk money invested by MB that made the big difference, just like Mateschitz did for Red Bull. I doubt that the huge manufacturing and R&D resources in Stuttgart actually played any part in that success.
MB bought Brawn for €100 million and achieved nothing for 3-years. So poor were their results that Norbert Haugh fell on his sword. Brawn then cherry picked their key personnel for every department, including Toto, before leaving himself.
During that transition MB invested €millions more to make the team what it is today. I am sure that Toto could now raise sufficient finances for an MBO, if MB wanted to quit.
But it was the risk money invested by MB that made the big difference, just like Mateschitz did for Red Bull. I doubt that the huge manufacturing and R&D resources in Stuttgart actually played any part in that success.
I was thinking of Toyota’s relative failure. They have no shortage of engineering expertise, and apparently threw more money into F1 than Ferrari. And yet that was not enough. Honda also tried very hard without much success. Ironically, they pulled out just in time to see a Mercedes engine win the championship in a car designed under Honda ownership.
Red Bull, McLaren and Williams have at various points produced dominant cars without the same level of manufacturer support. Clearly having the right people in the right environment is the most important thing.
Maybe Mercedes have moved the game on to a point where it’s impossible to compete without a manufacturing giant. But is this really the case? RB are still close. And is it really Mercedes achievement anyway?
Obviously I don’t know the answer, but it’s interesting to try and understand how the team got to where it is.
Red Bull, McLaren and Williams have at various points produced dominant cars without the same level of manufacturer support. Clearly having the right people in the right environment is the most important thing.
Maybe Mercedes have moved the game on to a point where it’s impossible to compete without a manufacturing giant. But is this really the case? RB are still close. And is it really Mercedes achievement anyway?
Obviously I don’t know the answer, but it’s interesting to try and understand how the team got to where it is.
Well the team was spun out of Brawn GP and Daimler took a 40%? ish stake, along with AAbar (middle east wealth fund), the Management Toto, Ross, Niki had the rest, and Petronas were the key sponsor.
It's fair to say BAR/Honda (the previous custodians of Brackley) underperformed, and Brawn GP, was right place right time.
The Mercedes PU factory (formally Ilmor) had made WDC/WCC for McLaren for several years, powering Mika & Lewis to Mclaren WDC & of course Jenson in the Brawn.
It certainly suited Daimler to have a "works" team, with the ongoing engine commitment especially with the likelihood of the PU costs increasing with what became MGU H (kinetic heat recovery), with the proposed PU changes, and also having a seat at the table to the negotiations of what the formula would look like, rather than being a PU provider to the likes of Mclaren.
Interestingly, a few years later Mclaren decided that they needed full works support (Honda) to follow this model, and to date a customer team has not had the better of them.
So yes, they need MB & MB needs Brackley.
It's fair to say BAR/Honda (the previous custodians of Brackley) underperformed, and Brawn GP, was right place right time.
The Mercedes PU factory (formally Ilmor) had made WDC/WCC for McLaren for several years, powering Mika & Lewis to Mclaren WDC & of course Jenson in the Brawn.
It certainly suited Daimler to have a "works" team, with the ongoing engine commitment especially with the likelihood of the PU costs increasing with what became MGU H (kinetic heat recovery), with the proposed PU changes, and also having a seat at the table to the negotiations of what the formula would look like, rather than being a PU provider to the likes of Mclaren.
Interestingly, a few years later Mclaren decided that they needed full works support (Honda) to follow this model, and to date a customer team has not had the better of them.
So yes, they need MB & MB needs Brackley.
SpudLink said:
I was thinking of Toyota’s relative failure. They have no shortage of engineering expertise, and apparently threw more money into F1 than Ferrari. And yet that was not enough.
Toyota's first big mistake was basing themselves in Cologne. If they'd set up a new operation in Oxfordshire then they'd have been able to attract better senior staff. They also needed to run it as an autonomous racing team, and not have the line of command going back to Nagoya for every decision.rdjohn said:
I think that the answer, in theory, is yes.
MB bought Brawn for €100 million and achieved nothing for 3-years. So poor were their results that Norbert Haugh fell on his sword. Brawn then cherry picked their key personnel for every department, including Toto, before leaving himself.
During that transition MB invested €millions more to make the team what it is today. I am sure that Toto could now raise sufficient finances for an MBO, if MB wanted to quit.
But it was the risk money invested by MB that made the big difference, just like Mateschitz did for Red Bull. I doubt that the huge manufacturing and R&D resources in Stuttgart actually played any part in that success.
Along with Deesee: “So yes, they need MB & MB needs Brackley”, I totally agree.MB bought Brawn for €100 million and achieved nothing for 3-years. So poor were their results that Norbert Haugh fell on his sword. Brawn then cherry picked their key personnel for every department, including Toto, before leaving himself.
During that transition MB invested €millions more to make the team what it is today. I am sure that Toto could now raise sufficient finances for an MBO, if MB wanted to quit.
But it was the risk money invested by MB that made the big difference, just like Mateschitz did for Red Bull. I doubt that the huge manufacturing and R&D resources in Stuttgart actually played any part in that success.
There’s also likely to have developed over the last few years, a healthy tension between Daimler and Brackley which only aids the success. It’s a partnership, where all the transactional bs has been smoothed away over the years to be replaced by trust and co-operation.
Funnily enough I was involved with an MBO a few years back (PE business lifted away from large FS company) and whilst everything was done with a healthy blessing by the bosses, there was only appreciation that the PE business was in the shape it was because of the benevolence and good management by the bigger institution.
OP, others, its worth remembering that Daimler wanted a bigger stake in running McLaren who weren't forthcoming and BrawnGP were ripe for being taken over so then you have to ask yourself who else Merc would've taken over as full works team because they were desperate to be not just a engine/PU supplier.
Wolf was part of Williams management before he was headhunted by Merc to take over from Norbet Haug.
I know it's intriguing and a bit of fun so I would look to the competitiveness of Williams in 2014 as an indicator of how competitive Team Brackley would have been.
Oh, and another thing, just who would've driven for Team Brackley?
Wolf was part of Williams management before he was headhunted by Merc to take over from Norbet Haug.
I know it's intriguing and a bit of fun so I would look to the competitiveness of Williams in 2014 as an indicator of how competitive Team Brackley would have been.
Oh, and another thing, just who would've driven for Team Brackley?
thegreenhell said:
SpudLink said:
I was thinking of Toyota’s relative failure. They have no shortage of engineering expertise, and apparently threw more money into F1 than Ferrari. And yet that was not enough.
Toyota's first big mistake was basing themselves in Cologne. If they'd set up a new operation in Oxfordshire then they'd have been able to attract better senior staff. They also needed to run it as an autonomous racing team, and not have the line of command going back to Nagoya for every decision.It's also something that still held back their LM team, although they improved massively.
entropy said:
Oh, and another thing, just who would've driven for Team Brackley?
That’s a good question. I don’t think they would have attracted Schumacher & Rosberg. And it’s unlikely they would have been able to recruit Hamilton. I didn’t mention this in my original post because I didnt want to answer my own question before the debate had started.
SpudLink said:
entropy said:
Oh, and another thing, just who would've driven for Team Brackley?
That’s a good question. I don’t think they would have attracted Schumacher & Rosberg. And it’s unlikely they would have been able to recruit Hamilton. I didn’t mention this in my original post because I didnt want to answer my own question before the debate had started.
I guess they would have kept Rubens, and could they have tempted Kimi away from his sabbatical? He was being paid off by Ferrari at that point, but was it a condition of that that he couldn't drive for another team? If he was still getting his Ferrari money, I don't imagine it would have taken too much to tempt him into the reigning championship team for 2010.
After that it would just have been a slide into the midfield for the team, with McLaren retaining works engine partner status.
SpudLink said:
I was thinking of Toyota’s relative failure. They have no shortage of engineering expertise, and apparently threw more money into F1 than Ferrari. And yet that was not enough. Honda also tried very hard without much success. Ironically, they pulled out just in time to see a Mercedes engine win the championship in a car designed under Honda ownership.
Red Bull, McLaren and Williams have at various points produced dominant cars without the same level of manufacturer support. Clearly having the right people in the right environment is the most important thing.
Maybe Mercedes have moved the game on to a point where it’s impossible to compete without a manufacturing giant. But is this really the case? RB are still close. And is it really Mercedes achievement anyway?
Obviously I don’t know the answer, but it’s interesting to try and understand how the team got to where it is.
TTE was incredibly successful in rallying, but it was run at arms length. Because investment in F1 was so much greater Toyota wanted to be hands-on, which was there undoing. Red Bull, McLaren and Williams have at various points produced dominant cars without the same level of manufacturer support. Clearly having the right people in the right environment is the most important thing.
Maybe Mercedes have moved the game on to a point where it’s impossible to compete without a manufacturing giant. But is this really the case? RB are still close. And is it really Mercedes achievement anyway?
Obviously I don’t know the answer, but it’s interesting to try and understand how the team got to where it is.
They were not happy when stuff did not perform, as expected, and so devoted huge resources into understanding why it did not perform, as expected. As the saying goes, if your foot is always safely on first-base, you can never score a run.
This story was told to me by a guy who was a development engineer / test driver for the Toyota LVA, also developed in Cologne. The plan was to launch the car when when Toyota won their first GP. He had several chassis that were very tired from the constant miles going round the Nurburgring. He was very happy in his work.
Being based in Cologne was not such a big drawback as they would pay sufficient to attract the top guys that they needed (like MB), it was just thought that the best engineers should come from Japan. So it was more of a R&D resource, than a race outfit.
I think the Norbert Haug learned from that.
markcoznottz said:
Painful to watch Bmw, Toyota and Honda works efforts in the modern era. Two lucky wins, (button, kubica), from how many $billion?
I would take Honda out of that equation. Partly because as a supplier they're doing good things now, also because I think it's likely they may enter the sport as a team at some point. The company is built upon racing roots after-all, no matter how many dismal Jazz's they flog to octogenarians.When the cost caps come in to play we could see all sorts of shifts in who are prepared to enter the fray. I can't see how they can possibly police the cost caps when it comes to car makers, so I think it will be a healthy renewal of car makers racing in F1, because they will find an advantage, I'd love to see Honda in the sport - they're by far the Japanese car firm I care about the most. Innovators to the end. There is hardly a Toyota technology in place today that wasn't pioneered at Honda.
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