Honda vs Renault
Discussion
At the Monaco GP, there was a lot of airtime and press mention of 4 Honda engines in the top 10 and the perception Honda had made significant progress, I’ve never bought it myself and still think they’re on a par with Renault power at best.
Q3 today in Canada, a power circuit which also rewards aero efficiency, 4 Renault cars in the top 10
Has Honda really made the progress they claim other than they aren’t quite grenading as often?
Q3 today in Canada, a power circuit which also rewards aero efficiency, 4 Renault cars in the top 10
Has Honda really made the progress they claim other than they aren’t quite grenading as often?
I think honda probably have the edge. If we factor in reliability... They certainly do.
As a company, honda have developed some of the finest and most advanced engines ever seen. Renault... Make cars and engines for people that don't want either, yet have to buy one for the commute. It might seem as though that has little to do with F1, but in the end I think passion leads to results. I think the honda PU is at least 3rd. Maybe even 2nd.. it's hard to tell how good it is because the RB car isn't directly comparable to the Mercedes or Ferrari.
As a company, honda have developed some of the finest and most advanced engines ever seen. Renault... Make cars and engines for people that don't want either, yet have to buy one for the commute. It might seem as though that has little to do with F1, but in the end I think passion leads to results. I think the honda PU is at least 3rd. Maybe even 2nd.. it's hard to tell how good it is because the RB car isn't directly comparable to the Mercedes or Ferrari.
TheDeuce said:
I think honda probably have the edge. If we factor in reliability... They certainly do.
As a company, honda have developed some of the finest and most advanced engines ever seen. Renault... Make cars and engines for people that don't want either, yet have to buy one for the commute. It might seem as though that has little to do with F1, but in the end I think passion leads to results. I think the honda PU is at least 3rd. Maybe even 2nd.. it's hard to tell how good it is because the RB car isn't directly comparable to the Mercedes or Ferrari.
What a load of cobblersAs a company, honda have developed some of the finest and most advanced engines ever seen. Renault... Make cars and engines for people that don't want either, yet have to buy one for the commute. It might seem as though that has little to do with F1, but in the end I think passion leads to results. I think the honda PU is at least 3rd. Maybe even 2nd.. it's hard to tell how good it is because the RB car isn't directly comparable to the Mercedes or Ferrari.
TheDeuce said:
I think honda probably have the edge. If we factor in reliability... They certainly do.
As a company, honda have developed some of the finest and most advanced engines ever seen. Renault... Make cars and engines for people that don't want either, yet have to buy one for the commute. It might seem as though that has little to do with F1, but in the end I think passion leads to results. I think the honda PU is at least 3rd. Maybe even 2nd.. it's hard to tell how good it is because the RB car isn't directly comparable to the Mercedes or Ferrari.
Most of that is utter nonsense as I’m looking purely at current PU’s not history or perceived passion (by the way id say if you think the Japs are more passionate than the French then I’d say you might be a little bit mad) but how many engines have RB and TR changed so far this season to Renault and McLaren?As a company, honda have developed some of the finest and most advanced engines ever seen. Renault... Make cars and engines for people that don't want either, yet have to buy one for the commute. It might seem as though that has little to do with F1, but in the end I think passion leads to results. I think the honda PU is at least 3rd. Maybe even 2nd.. it's hard to tell how good it is because the RB car isn't directly comparable to the Mercedes or Ferrari.
Car-Matt said:
Most of that is utter nonsense as I’m looking purely at current PU’s not history or perceived passion (by the way id say if you think the Japs are more passionate than the French then I’d say you might be a little bit mad) but how many engines have RB and TR changed so far this season to Renault and McLaren?
Which bit is utter nonsense?I did not compare the passion of two countries, but of two firms.
As for your question, which is better.. how can that be answered directly? Asking how many have dnf'd due to failure isn't a full comparison... We don't know the power figures or curves, all we can do is speculate. I think the honda PU is seemingly better than the Renault.
TheDeuce said:
Car-Matt said:
Most of that is utter nonsense as I’m looking purely at current PU’s not history or perceived passion (by the way id say if you think the Japs are more passionate than the French then I’d say you might be a little bit mad) but how many engines have RB and TR changed so far this season to Renault and McLaren?
Which bit is utter nonsense?I did not compare the passion of two countries, but of two firms.
As for your question, which is better.. how can that be answered directly? Asking how many have dnf'd due to failure isn't a full comparison... We don't know the power figures or curves, all we can do is speculate. I think the honda PU is seemingly better than the Renault.
Engine history - Renault engines are over twice as successful as Honda engines. You have to go back almost 30 years to find a non Mercedes, Renault or Ferrari engine title.
Current power units - nothing to suggest the Honda or Renault is performing better than the Ferrari or Mercedes.
CocoUK said:
Passion - how are you possibly measuring one 'firms' passion over another? How have you obtained this data?
Engine history - Renault engines are over twice as successful as Honda engines. You have to go back almost 30 years to find a non Mercedes, Renault or Ferrari engine title.
Current power units - nothing to suggest the Honda or Renault is performing better than the Ferrari or Mercedes.
I'm talking (as I made clear) about the two firms engine Innovation over the decades, not their respective F1 efforts specifically.Engine history - Renault engines are over twice as successful as Honda engines. You have to go back almost 30 years to find a non Mercedes, Renault or Ferrari engine title.
Current power units - nothing to suggest the Honda or Renault is performing better than the Ferrari or Mercedes.
And no one did suggest that the honda or Renault PU was performing better than the other two. The question is honda Vs Renault. We at least know that the honda has been more reliable, and whatever the relative performance on paper (which we don't know), to me the honda PU hasn't appeared slower.
TheDeuce said:
I'm talking (as I made clear) about the two firms engine Innovation over the decades, not their respective F1 efforts specifically.
Actually - you did.TheDeuce said:
It might seem as though that has little to do with F1, but in the end I think passion leads to results.
---TheDeuce said:
And no one did suggest that the honda or Renault PU was performing better than the other two. The question is honda Vs Renault.
Actually - you did.TheDeuce said:
I think the honda PU is at least 3rd. Maybe even 2nd...
---Which is perhaps why you received members calling out your comments as 'cobblers' & 'nonsense'.
TheDeuce said:
We at least know that the honda has been more reliable, and whatever the relative performance on paper (which we don't know), to me the honda PU hasn't appeared slower.
I agree.TheDeuce said:
Which bit is utter nonsense?
I did not compare the passion of two countries, but of two firms.
As for your question, which is better.. how can that be answered directly? Asking how many have dnf'd due to failure isn't a full comparison... We don't know the power figures or curves, all we can do is speculate. I think the honda PU is seemingly better than the Renault.
you're muddling the sponsor and the race team, which is of course what they want, but while renault make insipid products mecachrome has a 40 year (on and off) history of building renault race engines, some of which were pretty badass, and I'd say they were an illustrious and pretty important part of F1.I did not compare the passion of two countries, but of two firms.
As for your question, which is better.. how can that be answered directly? Asking how many have dnf'd due to failure isn't a full comparison... We don't know the power figures or curves, all we can do is speculate. I think the honda PU is seemingly better than the Renault.
Teddy Lop said:
you're muddling the sponsor and the race team, which is of course what they want, but while renault make insipid products mecachrome has a 40 year (on and off) history of building renault race engines, some of which were pretty badass, and I'd say they were an illustrious and pretty important part of F1.
I've obviously confused the issue by not being super clear to sperate the sponsors / race team, or on Honda's case, their 'F1 division'.. I apologise.And yes Renault have a respectable history - my point was that honda (company) were born in motorsport and have spent decades innovating and making racecar engine technologies work in daily drivers - there is parity between their racing and commercial endeavours.
It is only my opinion of course - that the honda F1 PU is superior. Other than opinion I'm not sure how anyone could begin to answer the question originally asked.
TheDeuce said:
I've obviously confused the issue by not being super clear to sperate the sponsors / race team, or on Honda's case, their 'F1 division'.. I apologise.
And yes Renault have a respectable history - my point was that honda (company) were born in motorsport and have spent decades innovating and making racecar engine technologies work in daily drivers - there is parity between their racing and commercial endeavours.
It is only my opinion of course - that the honda F1 PU is superior. Other than opinion I'm not sure how anyone could begin to answer the question originally asked.
I'm sorry but that "parity between racing and commercial endeavours" sounds like their own PR spinAnd yes Renault have a respectable history - my point was that honda (company) were born in motorsport and have spent decades innovating and making racecar engine technologies work in daily drivers - there is parity between their racing and commercial endeavours.
It is only my opinion of course - that the honda F1 PU is superior. Other than opinion I'm not sure how anyone could begin to answer the question originally asked.
Mecachrome has built the engines that have won 168 races and 11 drivers titles, incidently 2 of which were for the "national" team and another for prost. What is it about also making the Honda jazz and some fruity road cars that gives Honda employees the greater motivation or skill or whatever advantage it is you think they have?
Honda - born in motorsport ?
This was their first automobile https://global.honda/heritage/timeline/product-his...
You couldn’t make up the drivel The Deuce spouts
I’m on about this seasons PU’s not company history or your personal Honda fanboy feelings.
I just don’t see the spin that Honda have yet made huge strides
We know the Red Bull has aero efficiency after its years with Renault so we’d expect RB to still do ok with the Honda, But at Power circuits they still look to be behind Renault, maybe there’s is overall parity at best but after Monaco when the press was practically announcing Hondas second (third? Fourth?) coming I just don’t buy it yet.
This was their first automobile https://global.honda/heritage/timeline/product-his...
You couldn’t make up the drivel The Deuce spouts
I’m on about this seasons PU’s not company history or your personal Honda fanboy feelings.
I just don’t see the spin that Honda have yet made huge strides
We know the Red Bull has aero efficiency after its years with Renault so we’d expect RB to still do ok with the Honda, But at Power circuits they still look to be behind Renault, maybe there’s is overall parity at best but after Monaco when the press was practically announcing Hondas second (third? Fourth?) coming I just don’t buy it yet.
Edited by Car-Matt on Sunday 9th June 14:18
Also if you take the high spots for each team then the most fortunate driver has only used 2 of everything in Ren, TR, RB and McL.... Renault have had more new components on their unluckiest cars but it’s not a huge difference and they seem to have better performance.
IMO Honda are at parity with Renault at the very best and in reality are being flattered slightly by RB aero efficiency
IMO Honda are at parity with Renault at the very best and in reality are being flattered slightly by RB aero efficiency
Power unit usage up to Monaco GP end - https://maxf1.net/en/2019-f1-power-unit-elements-u...
Renault engines:
Hulkenberg has already used all of his IC, TC, MGU-H & MGU-K allowed.
Ricciardo used all of his MGU-K allowed
Carlos Sainz has already used EVERYTHING ALLOWED - IC, TC, MGU-H, MGU-K, ES and CE
Lando Norris has used all of his MGU-K and CE allowed
Honda engines:
Verstappen used all of his MGU-K allowed
Gasly used all of his MGU-K allowed.
Kyvyt used all of his ICE & MGU-K allowed
Albon used all of his ICE allowed
Renault engines:
Hulkenberg has already used all of his IC, TC, MGU-H & MGU-K allowed.
Ricciardo used all of his MGU-K allowed
Carlos Sainz has already used EVERYTHING ALLOWED - IC, TC, MGU-H, MGU-K, ES and CE
Lando Norris has used all of his MGU-K and CE allowed
Honda engines:
Verstappen used all of his MGU-K allowed
Gasly used all of his MGU-K allowed.
Kyvyt used all of his ICE & MGU-K allowed
Albon used all of his ICE allowed
TheDeuce said:
Teddy Lop said:
you're muddling the sponsor and the race team, which is of course what they want, but while renault make insipid products mecachrome has a 40 year (on and off) history of building renault race engines, some of which were pretty badass, and I'd say they were an illustrious and pretty important part of F1.
I've obviously confused the issue by not being super clear to sperate the sponsors / race team, or on Honda's case, their 'F1 division'.. I apologise.And yes Renault have a respectable history - my point was that honda (company) were born in motorsport and have spent decades innovating and making racecar engine technologies work in daily drivers - there is parity between their racing and commercial endeavours.
It is only my opinion of course - that the honda F1 PU is superior. Other than opinion I'm not sure how anyone could begin to answer the question originally asked.
They wouldn’t have had to specifically forbid in-team criticism of it if it hadn’t been.
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