Michael Schumacher v Lewis Hamilton
Discussion
95% of us would probably say the top 3 F1 drivers of all time is Fangio, Senna and Schumacher. What order of course is a whole different debate.
What about Michael Schumacher v Lewis Hamilton?
Michael's records speak for themselves. He was dominate on the track and waited for no man, he did demand No.1 status, and sometimes is racing style was flawed, but we can all agree he was an out and out racer.
Lewis's records also speak for themselves, he dominates on the track and waits for no man, again an out and out racer. Heading for his 6th WDC, not bad considering he missed the WDC in his first season because his team screwed up.
Ignore the bling, tattoos and social media side, I'd say Lewis just edges it now. His racing is sublime and speaks for itself. Although they did race together it's fair to say that Michael was past his best, and I hope that Max gets the car to give Lewis a good run before he passes his best.
What about Michael Schumacher v Lewis Hamilton?
Michael's records speak for themselves. He was dominate on the track and waited for no man, he did demand No.1 status, and sometimes is racing style was flawed, but we can all agree he was an out and out racer.
Lewis's records also speak for themselves, he dominates on the track and waits for no man, again an out and out racer. Heading for his 6th WDC, not bad considering he missed the WDC in his first season because his team screwed up.
Ignore the bling, tattoos and social media side, I'd say Lewis just edges it now. His racing is sublime and speaks for itself. Although they did race together it's fair to say that Michael was past his best, and I hope that Max gets the car to give Lewis a good run before he passes his best.
You’re comparing a finished career with an un-finished one.
I think Lewis has more stuff to achieve yet.
Schumacher and Ferrari had a lot of help along the way.
Lewis has had to fight his teammates most of the time.
He deserved to win his first season. His team let him down.
Rosberg won due to Lewis mechanical failure let’s not forget.
This could very easily have been his 8th WDC.
Lots of ifs and maybe but same could be said of Schumacher. Senna joined Williams at the start of a dominant run. Had he not lost his life, he would have won another 4 on the trot.
Journeymen Hill and Villeneuve both won or came second.
Once Williams sorted the car, Senna would have monstered Schumacher.
We will never know what could have been.
I think Lewis has more stuff to achieve yet.
Schumacher and Ferrari had a lot of help along the way.
Lewis has had to fight his teammates most of the time.
He deserved to win his first season. His team let him down.
Rosberg won due to Lewis mechanical failure let’s not forget.
This could very easily have been his 8th WDC.
Lots of ifs and maybe but same could be said of Schumacher. Senna joined Williams at the start of a dominant run. Had he not lost his life, he would have won another 4 on the trot.
Journeymen Hill and Villeneuve both won or came second.
Once Williams sorted the car, Senna would have monstered Schumacher.
We will never know what could have been.
You can only find the best of a driver when they're in substandard machinery. Hamilton, really, has had the best of machines for his entire career. Schumacher hasn't.
So for my money, Schumacher proved himself in less competitive machinery, but Hamilton hasn't had that opportunity yet. So Schumacher wins.
So for my money, Schumacher proved himself in less competitive machinery, but Hamilton hasn't had that opportunity yet. So Schumacher wins.
Sir Bagalot said:
95% of us would probably say the top 3 F1 drivers of all time is Fangio, Senna and Schumacher. What order of course is a whole different debate.
What about Michael Schumacher v Lewis Hamilton?
Michael's records speak for themselves. He was dominate on the track and waited for no man, he did demand No.1 status, and sometimes is racing style was flawed, but we can all agree he was an out and out racer.
Lewis's records also speak for themselves, he dominates on the track and waits for no man, again an out and out racer. Heading for his 6th WDC, not bad considering he missed the WDC in his first season because his team screwed up.
Ignore the bling, tattoos and social media side, I'd say Lewis just edges it now. His racing is sublime and speaks for itself. Although they did race together it's fair to say that Michael was past his best, and I hope that Max gets the car to give Lewis a good run before he passes his best.
I think he's as good as any of those three - although Senna, for me, was particularly interesting/special. But as you say, they are the top three normally mentioned, and that probably won't change until Lewis has retired and is missed enough to be elevated to the go-to example of a legendary F1 driver.What about Michael Schumacher v Lewis Hamilton?
Michael's records speak for themselves. He was dominate on the track and waited for no man, he did demand No.1 status, and sometimes is racing style was flawed, but we can all agree he was an out and out racer.
Lewis's records also speak for themselves, he dominates on the track and waits for no man, again an out and out racer. Heading for his 6th WDC, not bad considering he missed the WDC in his first season because his team screwed up.
Ignore the bling, tattoos and social media side, I'd say Lewis just edges it now. His racing is sublime and speaks for itself. Although they did race together it's fair to say that Michael was past his best, and I hope that Max gets the car to give Lewis a good run before he passes his best.
There will always be different views and it's impossible to say anyone is right as it's impossible to compare them side by side. In terms of records Schumacher achieved more wins in less time than Lewis, so that's a record Lewis can't beat now. But.. I would argue that many of those wins were not exactly sporting, so as an out and out talent, I personally think Lewis edges it.
Even though he had undoubted talent, unfortunately just about every one of Schumacher's titles were flawed.....
Benetton - constant suspicion of cheating. refuelling flow rates, use of traction control, dodgy code in the ECU, and last minute dives to take out Hill...
Ferrari - Not allowing any competition from the no 2 driver, taking Villeneuve out when it all went wrong at Estoril, Ferrari designing the whole car around Schumacher, Bridgestone designing their tyres around Ferrari's needs.
You might say he was clever, and a good champion for achieving this, but to me it's basically race fixing and de-values everything he did. The worst was seeing Barichello giving Schmacher the race win in Austria because perish the thought Barichello beat him fair and square....
Senna, big competition from Prost, both at McLaren and at Ferrari, even with Balestre trying to fix the races for Prost.
Hamilton, pure talent as with Senna. Not afraid to have a good no 2, Won races with a wilting McLaren after winning his 1st championship and not afraid of competition.
Benetton - constant suspicion of cheating. refuelling flow rates, use of traction control, dodgy code in the ECU, and last minute dives to take out Hill...
Ferrari - Not allowing any competition from the no 2 driver, taking Villeneuve out when it all went wrong at Estoril, Ferrari designing the whole car around Schumacher, Bridgestone designing their tyres around Ferrari's needs.
You might say he was clever, and a good champion for achieving this, but to me it's basically race fixing and de-values everything he did. The worst was seeing Barichello giving Schmacher the race win in Austria because perish the thought Barichello beat him fair and square....
Senna, big competition from Prost, both at McLaren and at Ferrari, even with Balestre trying to fix the races for Prost.
Hamilton, pure talent as with Senna. Not afraid to have a good no 2, Won races with a wilting McLaren after winning his 1st championship and not afraid of competition.
I never saw Fangio race, so I tend to dismiss his achievements. The fact that his mates called him Fatso, and his significant age, suggests that that he competed in an era where he was the professional amongst a field of gentlemen drivers.
My third in the list would probably be Stewart, only 3 WDCs but at a time when drivers dying seemed to be a monthly event. The simple fact that he survived his career shows just how good he was amongst his peer group.
OK, so now I will be controversial. I always felt that Schuey was generally the very best of quite an ordinary field of competitors - the loss of Senna cost us lots of highly competitive races. Mika was the only other driver to consistently give him a hard time. His time at Ferrari was assisted greatly by his uncontested No1 status, but then his partnership with Brawn and Todt gave a stability to the team that has yet to be replicated. I had seen him in the Mercedes GpC, but when he drove the Jordan at Spa, it was immediately obvious that he was something very special.
Watching Lewis in GP2, it was also obvious that we were looking at someone very special and his entry into F1 against Alonso made clear just how special he was. Winning his first WDC in his second year, in the most dramatic way, cemented that notion. But since that time he has become leader amongst a very strong field of competitors. His dominance since 2014 is exceptional masked somewhat by just how good Nico actually was. The only worry now is that he has become just too dominant - witness Bottas having come 2nd yesterday. He has no answer to Lewis right now.
I feel that Mercedes dominance is robbing us of some great racing between Lewis, Max, Seb and CLC. A fight that I think Lewis himself wishes he was having.
My third in the list would probably be Stewart, only 3 WDCs but at a time when drivers dying seemed to be a monthly event. The simple fact that he survived his career shows just how good he was amongst his peer group.
OK, so now I will be controversial. I always felt that Schuey was generally the very best of quite an ordinary field of competitors - the loss of Senna cost us lots of highly competitive races. Mika was the only other driver to consistently give him a hard time. His time at Ferrari was assisted greatly by his uncontested No1 status, but then his partnership with Brawn and Todt gave a stability to the team that has yet to be replicated. I had seen him in the Mercedes GpC, but when he drove the Jordan at Spa, it was immediately obvious that he was something very special.
Watching Lewis in GP2, it was also obvious that we were looking at someone very special and his entry into F1 against Alonso made clear just how special he was. Winning his first WDC in his second year, in the most dramatic way, cemented that notion. But since that time he has become leader amongst a very strong field of competitors. His dominance since 2014 is exceptional masked somewhat by just how good Nico actually was. The only worry now is that he has become just too dominant - witness Bottas having come 2nd yesterday. He has no answer to Lewis right now.
I feel that Mercedes dominance is robbing us of some great racing between Lewis, Max, Seb and CLC. A fight that I think Lewis himself wishes he was having.
Having just read Total Competition by Ross Brawn it really is an eye opener behind the scenes at Ferrari and how they dominate the championship rules and how they push them to favour them as much as possible. Schumacher had a huge advantage in the time he was there as no other team had any chance, Ross was a master tactician in that respect.
Speed Badger said:
I would say Hamilton edges it in my book past Senna and Schumacher. He has never resorted to dirty tricks to win. The one caveat I will add is that for all his world titles, Hamilton has only beaten (competitively speaking) Massa, Rosberg and a very mistake-laden Vettel.
Really.....???? He beat Alonso in both a McLaren and a Ferrari, he beat Button in a McLaren, He beat Kovaleinen In a McLaren and I don't think any of his teamates apart from Rosberg ever beat him in 12 years of F1?
But if your adding in other world champions then he also beat Raikonnen.
Speed Badger said:
I would say Hamilton edges it in my book past Senna and Schumacher. He has never resorted to dirty tricks to win. The one caveat I will add is that for all his world titles, Hamilton has only beaten (competitively speaking) Massa, Rosberg and a very mistake-laden Vettel.
Though he missed the title in his first season, he did beat Alonso that year.It was interesting to see the bit on Channel 4 after last weekend's race where both Coulthard and especially Webber said they regarded Hamilton as better than Schumacher now.
Hamilton purely on his decision making credentials when choosing teams - left McLaren and joined Mercedes with perfect timing!
I think the thing with living legends is that they are underappreciated vs those who are gone/retired, there is an awe around those who we never saw week in week out.
I think the thing with living legends is that they are underappreciated vs those who are gone/retired, there is an awe around those who we never saw week in week out.
Speed Badger said:
I would say Hamilton edges it in my book past Senna and Schumacher. He has never resorted to dirty tricks to win. The one caveat I will add is that for all his world titles, Hamilton has only beaten (competitively speaking) Massa, Rosberg and a very mistake-laden Vettel.
Good point - not all world titles are equal..Although the one he's winning currently is extremely impressive. Bottas is absolutely allowed to fight back and Lewis is still 36 points ahead. Not a bad points lead given all but one race has been a Mercedes 1-2.. That's thing, even though Mercedes are walking it this year, as a driver he is (in theory at least) under intense pressure from a team mate that is always good enough to be just behind him and has won two races this season.
I somehow can't imagine Lewis failing to take the title though. I wonder if he can imagine that either? I get the impression he doesn't work that way.
It's a tough one, both legends of the game (one soon to be once retired).
I personally first became a fan of Lewis after seeing the reactions of people on pistonheads of an amateur(ish) racing driver coming into F1, and showing his immense talent. How much HATRED he got on pistonheads really was bizarre at the time.
He broke the mould of what it takes to become an f1 driver, really had to battle the establishment of rich, white, posh people that ran F1, and they did everything they could to try undermine Hamiltons talents with their behavior during the first couple of seasons of him in F1 was terrible.
I do believe Hamiltons life will be made into a movie in the future, and there's not many racing drivers that can say that, going back many many decades.
I personally first became a fan of Lewis after seeing the reactions of people on pistonheads of an amateur(ish) racing driver coming into F1, and showing his immense talent. How much HATRED he got on pistonheads really was bizarre at the time.
He broke the mould of what it takes to become an f1 driver, really had to battle the establishment of rich, white, posh people that ran F1, and they did everything they could to try undermine Hamiltons talents with their behavior during the first couple of seasons of him in F1 was terrible.
I do believe Hamiltons life will be made into a movie in the future, and there's not many racing drivers that can say that, going back many many decades.
Lannister902 said:
I do believe Hamiltons life will be made into a movie in the future, and there's not many racing drivers that can say that, going back many many decades.
Sadly mostly the ones that can, had to have a nasty accident/die on track before the script was penned..It would be an inspiring story though. His beyond the grid podcast episode (#1) was very interesting, plenty of material in there for a movie starting from karting years.
super7 said:
Speed Badger said:
I would say Hamilton edges it in my book past Senna and Schumacher. He has never resorted to dirty tricks to win. The one caveat I will add is that for all his world titles, Hamilton has only beaten (competitively speaking) Massa, Rosberg and a very mistake-laden Vettel.
Really.....???? He beat Alonso in both a McLaren and a Ferrari, he beat Button in a McLaren, He beat Kovaleinen In a McLaren and I don't think any of his teamates apart from Rosberg ever beat him in 12 years of F1?
But if your adding in other world champions then he also beat Raikonnen.
Currently, Schumacher shades it for me too because he was impressive every year of his (first) F1 career 1992-2006. While Hamilton 2010-2013 was hit-and-miss. Although he still managed to win races in 2009 when McLaren finally improved that car in the second-half of the year. But Schumacher was mighty every year and the blueprint for today's F1 drivers
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