Mercedes' conundrum- Bottas vs Ocon
Discussion
There seems to be an awful lot of chat about wither it will be Bottas or Ocon in the Mercedes next year alongside Hamilton and Wolff is set to think about it over the summer break.
Bottas didn't have the best last couple of races but did out qualify Hamilton in Hungary (not for the first time this year) and has beaten him on more than one occasion this year which is no mean feat!
Ocon on the other hand is seen as a talented up and coming driver who definitely deserves an F1 seat but did not outscore his team mate last year and while Perez is a good driver he is not on the same level as Hamilton, also Ocon and Perez had a number of coming togethers last year and Mercedes will not want a repeat of Hamilton vs Rosberg.
George Russell is also in the Mercedes stable but hasn't really been mentioned and cannot really show his true colours due to the lack of pack in the Williams, he has comprehensively beaten Kubica however it is unknown just how good he is on his second coming so not an easy yardstick to measure against.
I think the best thing Wolff could do is speak nicely to Williams and see if they can put Ocon in Williams alongside Russell for the rest of the season and evaluate the three of them for the remainder of the season and decide who goes where for 2020 from there and keep the same three in the Mercedes family split between Merc and Williams for 2020. Williams will not be keen on potentially loosing their best driver next year but all three are better than Kubica and Bottas' experience may help Williams recovery in 2020 if he does indeed end up there.
Bottas didn't have the best last couple of races but did out qualify Hamilton in Hungary (not for the first time this year) and has beaten him on more than one occasion this year which is no mean feat!
Ocon on the other hand is seen as a talented up and coming driver who definitely deserves an F1 seat but did not outscore his team mate last year and while Perez is a good driver he is not on the same level as Hamilton, also Ocon and Perez had a number of coming togethers last year and Mercedes will not want a repeat of Hamilton vs Rosberg.
George Russell is also in the Mercedes stable but hasn't really been mentioned and cannot really show his true colours due to the lack of pack in the Williams, he has comprehensively beaten Kubica however it is unknown just how good he is on his second coming so not an easy yardstick to measure against.
I think the best thing Wolff could do is speak nicely to Williams and see if they can put Ocon in Williams alongside Russell for the rest of the season and evaluate the three of them for the remainder of the season and decide who goes where for 2020 from there and keep the same three in the Mercedes family split between Merc and Williams for 2020. Williams will not be keen on potentially loosing their best driver next year but all three are better than Kubica and Bottas' experience may help Williams recovery in 2020 if he does indeed end up there.
Jasandjules said:
Oddly Sky were mentioning the talk of Hulk leaving Renault with Ocon going there so they have a French driver....
Toto has recently said that maybe just maybe Ocon might have to think about himself and leave the Mercedes stable in order to get a seat, if I was Ocon I'd take that as a hint I can't see a reason for Mercedes to drop Bottas as long as they have Hamilton to lead the team. I suspect they will want Ocon to have a drive somewhere to evaluate him as a potential team leader for when Hamilton leaves, but I can't see a reason to bring him into the main team if they can get him a seat elsewhere.
It is clearly current line up vs future lineup and when they make the switch. Ferrari and red bull for this season maybe have jumped a year early with their future stars but that will pay off next year. Vs when do mercedes bring in youth to replace a hamilton (who I guess they are scared of doing a nico)
Kubica has paid for his season and will see it out unless someone gets their chequebook out to make up the deficit.
I don't see the point in replacing Bottas with Ocon. He was level with Perez, which to me makes me doubt he'll do any better than Bottas.
I think they should try getting Ricciardo in that seat. I think he's fast enough to give Hamilton a hard time.
I don't see the point in replacing Bottas with Ocon. He was level with Perez, which to me makes me doubt he'll do any better than Bottas.
I think they should try getting Ricciardo in that seat. I think he's fast enough to give Hamilton a hard time.
Jasandjules said:
Oddly Sky were mentioning the talk of Hulk leaving Renault with Ocon going there so they have a French driver....
I think that is what may force Wolff's hand, either find Ocon an F1 seat for 2020 or loose him from the Merc family. Without the chance of a drive in Mercedes I'd think Ocon would rather go to Renault than Williams for 2020 so they put him in Williams now/after the summer break with the remit of prove yourself and you'll be in the Merc but if not you'll still have a drive for 2020 with Williams. I wonder if Ocon is really a better driver than Hulk, he is younger and French and that may be what Renault want with the fact they now have the experienced hands of Ricciardo in the other seat but I think Hulk is every bit as good a driver as Ocon.
kiseca said:
Kubica has paid for his season and will see it out unless someone gets their chequebook out to make up the deficit.
I don't see the point in replacing Bottas with Ocon. He was level with Perez, which to me makes me doubt he'll do any better than Bottas.
I think they should try getting Ricciardo in that seat. I think he's fast enough to give Hamilton a hard time.
I don't see the point in replacing Bottas with Ocon. He was level with Perez, which to me makes me doubt he'll do any better than Bottas.
I think they should try getting Ricciardo in that seat. I think he's fast enough to give Hamilton a hard time.
But they don't want to give Hamilton a 'hard time'?? They want consistent podiums at minimum, not to upset the applecart. They learned from the Rosberg/Hamilton situation.....
Bottas is obviously delivering that (Germany and Hungary excepted) but the rationale is that Hamilton may retire at the end of 2020 so they want Ocon in to see if he can be 'the man'.
I don't see it personally, but I also feel there's very few other candidates for that seat at the moment. With the exception of Hamilton, Verstappen and maybe LeClerc, every other F1 driver is looking either inexperienced, bored or pretty average at the moment.....
Hamilton will do at least two more season after this. Next year he will match Schumacher's seven WDC tittles, and he's said wants to have a look at the 2021 cars before he goes.As long as he doesn't do a Rosberg and retire without notice then Mercedes don't need to rush to do anything. They won't be short of options. Any top driver would jump at an empty Mercedes seat.
fesuvious said:
Hamilton could be driving just like this for another 5 or 6 years yet easily
Yeah he's contracted at Mercedes until the end of 2020 and I think he'll sign a one year extension to the end of 2021 to evaluate F1's new era and Merc's competitiveness in that era. If the Merc aren't competitive he'll try to move to whoever is (Ferrari may appeal with their history but not sure if they'd let him have the freedom he needs and gets from Mercedes) and only if he can't get a competitive seat would he retire from F1 after 2021 and I don't see that happening as I believe Lewis could pick and choose where he wants to drive.Facts:
Mercedes have publicly stated they do not want a repeat of the Lewis vs Nico situation.
Lewis is statistically one of the greatest of all time.
Bottas is doing a fine job of picking up points as a solid Merc number 2, and was challenging Lewis at the start of the season.
Toto has stated this year that Bottas is in the form of his life.
Bottas has made one significant error this year, which his team mate also made.
Ocon finished behind his team mate both years he has been driving (you can make up your own mind about Perez overall skill level)
Ocon crashed into the leader while being lapped.
Ocon had a number of run-ins with his team mate, and must bear some of the blame.
George Russel won the F2 championship last year against Norris and Albon in (what is supposed to be) identical machinery.
George Russel has been significantly out qualifying his current team mate in (what is supposed to be) identical machinery.
George Russel last race beat a Toro Rosso and Alfa on actual pace in the worst car on the grid.
Opinion:
Mercedes must be sick in the head to replace Bottas with Ocon next year. Take Lewis out of the situation and Bottas would be very comfortable at the top of the table right now. Add in a young and talented Russel in a few years and that's a solid pairing. I do not see what Ocon brings to the table for Mercedes. They do not want a challenger for Lewis and Bottas is filling that role almost exactly right now.
Mercedes have publicly stated they do not want a repeat of the Lewis vs Nico situation.
Lewis is statistically one of the greatest of all time.
Bottas is doing a fine job of picking up points as a solid Merc number 2, and was challenging Lewis at the start of the season.
Toto has stated this year that Bottas is in the form of his life.
Bottas has made one significant error this year, which his team mate also made.
Ocon finished behind his team mate both years he has been driving (you can make up your own mind about Perez overall skill level)
Ocon crashed into the leader while being lapped.
Ocon had a number of run-ins with his team mate, and must bear some of the blame.
George Russel won the F2 championship last year against Norris and Albon in (what is supposed to be) identical machinery.
George Russel has been significantly out qualifying his current team mate in (what is supposed to be) identical machinery.
George Russel last race beat a Toro Rosso and Alfa on actual pace in the worst car on the grid.
Opinion:
Mercedes must be sick in the head to replace Bottas with Ocon next year. Take Lewis out of the situation and Bottas would be very comfortable at the top of the table right now. Add in a young and talented Russel in a few years and that's a solid pairing. I do not see what Ocon brings to the table for Mercedes. They do not want a challenger for Lewis and Bottas is filling that role almost exactly right now.
Edited by Andy S15 on Monday 5th August 13:15
Jasandjules said:
Oddly Sky were mentioning the talk of Hulk leaving Renault with Ocon going there so they have a French driver....
I'm not saying it wouldn't happen but Renault don't really have a recent history of demanding a French driver - certainly not this side of the millennium. They let Grosjean go and put Palmer and Magnussen in when they took over from Lotus, for example. I think they'd now rather have the best driver available than a French driver for the sake of having a French driver.Jinba Ittai said:
I'll stick my neck out, based on Bottas' demeanour and the things that Wolff has been saying -
Bottas knows his days numbered -
Ocon to Mercedes
Vettel retires
Bottas to Ferrari
Hulkenberg to Haas
Gasly to Renault
Kvyat to Red Bull
2021
Hamilton Retires
Russell to Mercedes
Pin this, because think you might have something. Bottas knows his days numbered -
Ocon to Mercedes
Vettel retires
Bottas to Ferrari
Hulkenberg to Haas
Gasly to Renault
Kvyat to Red Bull
2021
Hamilton Retires
Russell to Mercedes
Mercedes need to think of the future. Russell’s trajectory puts him at Merc in 2021, they don’t want 2 new drivers so must put Ocon in the second seat next year to develop him for a year before Russell joins.
Bottas is good but he won’t win Merc championships against max and Charles ones red bull and Ferrari get their act together
There is a load of discussion on this in the long running and traditional silly season thread here, I'm not sure why we're discussing the Mercedes drivers in their own thread?
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