Ayrton sennas throttle technique.Why?
Discussion
I’ve always been curious about this and why,I know a lot of people have talked about it but I have never seen a clear explanation.I know he used it in F1,was it his form of anti lag for the turbo era?Did anti lag even exist then or was it banned?
I know he carried on using the technique when turbos were banned but did he use it in the earlier formula 3 etc.
I know he carried on using the technique when turbos were banned but did he use it in the earlier formula 3 etc.
I was unaware of this until now, but my first thought was to look at the opposite extreme by comparing to ABS. Anti-lock brakes do not actually prevent lock-up, they allow it as an end point for violent braking, switch off the brake effort to allow grip to resume, then repeat. Is it not possible that a throttle technique such as described - i.e. on-off-on-off - with variable mark space ratios would work in much the same way as ABS but in reverse?
Never seen a quote from Senna about why he did that. He did release a book about racecraft once, which I saw in a shop and was stupid enough not to purchase at the time. They are rare and sought after now. Anyway it means I don't know if he mentioned it in the book. I only remember him saying a car should be set up to oversteer in slow corners (suspension setting) and understeer in fast corners (downforce settings).
Anyway, I am sure this topic has been covered on here before. Don't know if it covered his reasons but it did turn out that it wasn't a turbo lag thing, because he was doing that pretty much his whole career in any car with or without a turbo. I think he did it to keep the rear unsettled just enough to help the car rotate, while keeping the steering relatively steady. But I could be wrong about the steering... he looks busy enough on that in the plentiful onboard shots that keep looping around on Facebook.
Schumacher was apparently the exact opposite of that, in that he would keep the throttle relatively steady and smooth, and did all the hard work with the wheel to keep the car pointing the right way.
Meanwhile, Prost.. and Clark and Stewart, are all known as smooth drivers. I guess the likes of Senna and Schumacher have speed because they have a good sense of a car's balance just over the limit of grip, whilst the smooth drivers have speed because they have a good sense of the car's momentum.
Who knows? There's enough difference between drivers even now to demonstrate that there is more than one way to achieve F1 champion levels of pace still.
One thing about Senna though, he was obviously good in the wet, and I remember an anecdote from Brundle about how in an F3 two heat event - or maybe race was stopped and restarted, I forget. Anyway it was wet, and in the first event Senna passed Brundle on an impossible line on the outside, without crashing. In the second event, Brundle tried that line and nearly binned it. Later he mentioned to Senna that his magic line didn't work so well after the restart, Senna said "I don't know. I didn't try it then, it looked way too wet by then!"
Senna saw a change in the condition of the track that looked the same to Brundle, and that leads me to consider that perhaps one of Senna's strengths, as it is for many exceptional sportspeople and fighter pilots and so on, was excellent eyesight.
Anyway, I am sure this topic has been covered on here before. Don't know if it covered his reasons but it did turn out that it wasn't a turbo lag thing, because he was doing that pretty much his whole career in any car with or without a turbo. I think he did it to keep the rear unsettled just enough to help the car rotate, while keeping the steering relatively steady. But I could be wrong about the steering... he looks busy enough on that in the plentiful onboard shots that keep looping around on Facebook.
Schumacher was apparently the exact opposite of that, in that he would keep the throttle relatively steady and smooth, and did all the hard work with the wheel to keep the car pointing the right way.
Meanwhile, Prost.. and Clark and Stewart, are all known as smooth drivers. I guess the likes of Senna and Schumacher have speed because they have a good sense of a car's balance just over the limit of grip, whilst the smooth drivers have speed because they have a good sense of the car's momentum.
Who knows? There's enough difference between drivers even now to demonstrate that there is more than one way to achieve F1 champion levels of pace still.
One thing about Senna though, he was obviously good in the wet, and I remember an anecdote from Brundle about how in an F3 two heat event - or maybe race was stopped and restarted, I forget. Anyway it was wet, and in the first event Senna passed Brundle on an impossible line on the outside, without crashing. In the second event, Brundle tried that line and nearly binned it. Later he mentioned to Senna that his magic line didn't work so well after the restart, Senna said "I don't know. I didn't try it then, it looked way too wet by then!"
Senna saw a change in the condition of the track that looked the same to Brundle, and that leads me to consider that perhaps one of Senna's strengths, as it is for many exceptional sportspeople and fighter pilots and so on, was excellent eyesight.
the cueball said:
Thanks for that link cueball. Interesting that he also likened the technique to ABS for braking.I always thought it was to counter turbo lag, then I saw him doing it i a Civic Vtec have a watch of his technique in a FWD car here, just the same, and it worked.
, incredible.
and funny to see the world champ taking time out to test a 1600cc Civic hatchback the day after the Japanse GP!
Oh and turn the sound up for this one....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKLywfzi0xU&fe...
, incredible.
and funny to see the world champ taking time out to test a 1600cc Civic hatchback the day after the Japanse GP!
Oh and turn the sound up for this one....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKLywfzi0xU&fe...
Edited by rallycross on Tuesday 31st March 15:54
motco said:
the cueball said:
Thanks for that link cueball. Interesting that he also likened the technique to ABS for braking.I used to watch a ten year Danny Wheldon do exactly the same thing in a 60 cc Cadet Kart in the late eighties. His feet used to go like a pair of pistons entering a corner.
It was all about keeping the revs up in these little underpowered machines so that he could accelerate more quickly out of the corner. He was, as I understood it, slipping the clutch while cadence braking.
Or at least, that was what I was told!
It was all about keeping the revs up in these little underpowered machines so that he could accelerate more quickly out of the corner. He was, as I understood it, slipping the clutch while cadence braking.
Or at least, that was what I was told!
Discussed in detail in this thread:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Keep an eye out for the Loafers
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Keep an eye out for the Loafers
Supersam83 said:
Discussed in detail in this thread:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Keep an eye out for the Loafers
Thanks for that. I got a severe case of deja vu when I saw this new thread but I couldn't find the original thread.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Keep an eye out for the Loafers
Currently listening to the latest Beyond the Grid podcast featuring Mark Blundell, he had the same driving style Senna, albeit with only 3 modulations per corner, his explanation was that it came from his motocross background and he applied it to everything he drove, including indycars on ovals!
It was something Senna learned after he had entered F1 I am sure . I saw him race , trackside , from FF1600 via F3 to F1 and although he was blindingly fast , the throttle thing wasn't apparent until 1988 . He came by us at Copse that year and we all looked at each other and said 'what the hell is up with his car ?' , before we realised it had become part of his act .
We had seen him in turbo cars from his F1 debut but the consensus then was that he had started was doing it as a sort of manual anti lag technique . I don't recall Blundell doing exactly the ,same , nor anyone else, but different drivers had (then as now ) audibly different techniques .
We had seen him in turbo cars from his F1 debut but the consensus then was that he had started was doing it as a sort of manual anti lag technique . I don't recall Blundell doing exactly the ,same , nor anyone else, but different drivers had (then as now ) audibly different techniques .
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