RAINMEISTERS? FACT or FICTION?
Discussion
Only one week after a panning in Austria Hamilton lands pole in torrential rain (in Styria?) Once again demonstrating some serious rain skills. They say that rain is the great leveller and that the greatest drIvers all have this ability, and that this is also a good way to spot rising talent. How true is this? I happen to think it is true but then I am a non racing driver. Any insights?
I raise Hamilton's 1 second to 11 seconds
Nigel Roebuck. "Gilles was the one bloke who made you go and look for a good corner in a practice session because you knew that where everybody else would go through as if on rails Gilles would be worth watching. That day in the rain at Watkins Glen was almost beyond belief! It truly was. You would think he had 300 horsepower more than anybody else. It just didn't seem possible. The speed he was travelling didn't bear any relation to anybody else. ”He was 11 seconds faster!• Jody was next fastest and couldn't believe it, saying that he scared himself rigid! I remember Laffite in the pits just Ü giggling when Gilles went past and saying, 'Why do we bother? He's different from the rest of us. On a separate level.'"”
That and Senna's opening lap at Donington showed a new level of skill
Nigel Roebuck. "Gilles was the one bloke who made you go and look for a good corner in a practice session because you knew that where everybody else would go through as if on rails Gilles would be worth watching. That day in the rain at Watkins Glen was almost beyond belief! It truly was. You would think he had 300 horsepower more than anybody else. It just didn't seem possible. The speed he was travelling didn't bear any relation to anybody else. ”He was 11 seconds faster!• Jody was next fastest and couldn't believe it, saying that he scared himself rigid! I remember Laffite in the pits just Ü giggling when Gilles went past and saying, 'Why do we bother? He's different from the rest of us. On a separate level.'"”
That and Senna's opening lap at Donington showed a new level of skill
If you watch the difference from George russels lap and Magnessuns lap there is a definite skill difference. George was tighter and on exit avoided all those rumble kerbs meaning he didn't break traction. Maggnessun went wider more aggressive over the kerbs on exit spinning up the rear wheels. He was probably trying harder but the end result was much slower. Rain is a great leveler. But not all quick people in the rain are quick in the dry.
GoatRider said:
Only one week after a panning in Austria Hamilton lands pole in torrential rain (in Styria?) Once again demonstrating some serious rain skills. They say that rain is the great leveller and that the greatest drIvers all have this ability, and that this is also a good way to spot rising talent. How true is this? I happen to think it is true but then I am a non racing driver. Any insights?
Well Hamilton, Verstappen, Ocon and Russell were the stars yesterday, I’d say that was a pretty good measure of natural talent. The rain is a leveller of car performance in F1, so the driver skill comes to the front. The one exception yesterday appeared to be Leclerc, but that just suggests that Ferrari have built a total and utter dog of a car this year. Lewis yesterday was very reminiscent of Senna at his best, when he put a second and a half on team-mate Prost in Monaco qualifying in 1988, or that scintillating first lap at a sodden Donington Park in 1993, following which he lapped the whole field bar second placed Prost, who was over a minute behind as they saw the chequered flag.
Fact.
There are some guys who just are different, when the rain comes in they disappear down the road leaving the rest scratching their heads. Hamilton is one, Verstappen another in the current crop.
That last lap was mesmerising.
To be that far ahead of your team mate is the measure I think shows the difference in skill level, both of those guys blitzed the same car yesterday. Seems Webber agrees.
https://twitter.com/aussiegrit/status/128220980915...
There are some guys who just are different, when the rain comes in they disappear down the road leaving the rest scratching their heads. Hamilton is one, Verstappen another in the current crop.
That last lap was mesmerising.
To be that far ahead of your team mate is the measure I think shows the difference in skill level, both of those guys blitzed the same car yesterday. Seems Webber agrees.
https://twitter.com/aussiegrit/status/128220980915...
vulture1 said:
..... But not all quick people in the rain are quick in the dry.
That is probably largely due to such drivers not having a good enough car to be quick in the dry - where the cars own abilities come to the front of performance.There are I'm sure exceptions. Some drivers are bound to have a particular ability in the wet but also some gaps in their abilities in the dry that makes them less competitive in the dry.
I remember Seb’s win for Minardi at Monza in the rain. It created his meteoric rise yet he only managed 10th yesterday - the Ferrari ain’t that bad.
Lewis likes to measure himself against Senna. If Senna was alive, I feel sure he would be measuring his performance against Lewis’s.
Prior to falling off, Max was very near to Lewis‘s time, but each corner was on the very edge, he was overdriving at the 101% level which can never be sustained.
I really believe that Lewis is the very best that we have ever seen. The rain just allowed him to demonstrate his true level of performance over a peer group of other excellent performers.
Come the race today, his performance will be limited by the need to manage a lot of stuff and a strategy determined by a huge committee of engineers and supercomputers.
Yesterday, it was simply man and machine as one.
Lewis likes to measure himself against Senna. If Senna was alive, I feel sure he would be measuring his performance against Lewis’s.
Prior to falling off, Max was very near to Lewis‘s time, but each corner was on the very edge, he was overdriving at the 101% level which can never be sustained.
I really believe that Lewis is the very best that we have ever seen. The rain just allowed him to demonstrate his true level of performance over a peer group of other excellent performers.
Come the race today, his performance will be limited by the need to manage a lot of stuff and a strategy determined by a huge committee of engineers and supercomputers.
Yesterday, it was simply man and machine as one.
rdjohn said:
I remember Seb’s win for Minardi at Monza in the rain. It created his meteoric rise yet he only managed 10th yesterday - the Ferrari ain’t that bad.
Lewis likes to measure himself against Senna. If Senna was alive, I feel sure he would be measuring his performance against Lewis’s.
Prior to falling off, Max was very near to Lewis‘s time, but each corner was on the very edge, he was overdriving at the 101% level which can never be sustained.
I really believe that Lewis is the very best that we have ever seen. The rain just allowed him to demonstrate his true level of performance over a peer group of other excellent performers.
Come the race today, his performance will be limited by the need to manage a lot of stuff and a strategy determined by a huge committee of engineers and supercomputers.
Yesterday, it was simply man and machine as one.
not to take away anything from vettel for that but the car was set up far more for the wet. Torro rosso gambled on a wet set up . Rightly so it was worth a throw of the dice to do something different. Lewis likes to measure himself against Senna. If Senna was alive, I feel sure he would be measuring his performance against Lewis’s.
Prior to falling off, Max was very near to Lewis‘s time, but each corner was on the very edge, he was overdriving at the 101% level which can never be sustained.
I really believe that Lewis is the very best that we have ever seen. The rain just allowed him to demonstrate his true level of performance over a peer group of other excellent performers.
Come the race today, his performance will be limited by the need to manage a lot of stuff and a strategy determined by a huge committee of engineers and supercomputers.
Yesterday, it was simply man and machine as one.
defblade said:
I've noticed that British drivers (and riders, for bikes) tend to be good in the rain; while Scandinavian drivers are good in the snow... now I wonder why this might be? 
If there's ever a wet-only series, then a Welsh driver is going to spring to the top
It's true, where you grow up does seem to make a difference! If there's ever a wet-only series, then a Welsh driver is going to spring to the top
Check out this Finnish chap larking around, he's inch perfect and so fluid - how many other drivers could do this without dropping a wheel onto the grass? https://youtu.be/1DN2bq60uRc
TheDeuce said:
defblade said:
I've noticed that British drivers (and riders, for bikes) tend to be good in the rain; while Scandinavian drivers are good in the snow... now I wonder why this might be?
If there's ever a wet-only series, then a Welsh driver is going to spring to the top
It's true, where you grow up does seem to make a difference! If there's ever a wet-only series, then a Welsh driver is going to spring to the top
Check out this Finnish chap larking around, he's inch perfect and so fluid - how many other drivers could do this without dropping a wheel onto the grass? https://youtu.be/1DN2bq60uRc
Britsh drivers are the Michelin Cross Climates of the racing world.
Lewis' lap yesterday was great, there were a few times struggling for traction out of corners and catching a slide, other than that it looked smooth, and normal. As said above, Verstappen was on the edge and ended up sideways.
Mr Pointy said:
Britsh drivers are the Michelin Cross Climates of the racing world.
Button seemed to know what tyres to be on and when to be on them. Hello Canada 2011, six tyre changes, last at one point, won.You can make yourself good in the rain, in bike racing Randy Mamola had never even raced in the rain before he came to Europe, yet he became one of the best in the wet. Dani Pedrosa hated it and always suffered because he was about 6 stone wet through!! And in the UK Michael Rutter was almost guaranteed a win if it rained no matter if he was on good bikes or not so magical was he in the wet.
In cars, I often find kartists are very good as they find out the wet lines, kart tracks are used so much the main line becomes very slick, so finding grip is necessary. I have seen some amazing wet driving at times, some FF stuff was staggering and in other times watching a George Polley or Mick Collard railing an Anglia or Escort off the wires at Ipswich or Wimbledon because that was where he found the grip while everyone else paddled round the inside sliding everywhere, strokes of genius really.
In cars, I often find kartists are very good as they find out the wet lines, kart tracks are used so much the main line becomes very slick, so finding grip is necessary. I have seen some amazing wet driving at times, some FF stuff was staggering and in other times watching a George Polley or Mick Collard railing an Anglia or Escort off the wires at Ipswich or Wimbledon because that was where he found the grip while everyone else paddled round the inside sliding everywhere, strokes of genius really.
Rain is a leveller, but I'm not sure by how much. The cars aren't going as quickly as they are in the dry, but the principles of aerodynamics still apply, and a good car in the dry can still be a good car in the wet.
Some cars can be very sensitive to ride height changes. Some can be very good at retaining heat in the tyres. These can help, but the driver is influencing more of that in the wet. But I think there is a limit to how much.
Some cars can be very sensitive to ride height changes. Some can be very good at retaining heat in the tyres. These can help, but the driver is influencing more of that in the wet. But I think there is a limit to how much.
Dr Z said:
Rain is a leveller, but I'm not sure by how much. The cars aren't going as quickly as they are in the dry, but the principles of aerodynamics still apply, and a good car in the dry can still be a good car in the wet.
I'm struggling to understand how Russell was lapping at essentially the same pace as the Ferrari's. Yes, he's an exceptional talent and the Ferrari isn't great, but Leclerc was second last week so even so the gap should theoretically be still apparent.I think Hamilton, Verstappen, Ocon and Russell all proved that driver talent does make a difference yesterday.
As much as its impressive someone is always going to be better that started very young and ran the tricky conditions till they are 2nd nature.
The soft boys and their dads probably sat in the car or went home.
Couple that with good engineers that can set the car up perfectly for the conditions.
They are going round so slowly compared to normal speeds that is must seem like slow motion
to them no matter what the rabid commentary seems to indicate.
The soft boys and their dads probably sat in the car or went home.
Couple that with good engineers that can set the car up perfectly for the conditions.
They are going round so slowly compared to normal speeds that is must seem like slow motion
to them no matter what the rabid commentary seems to indicate.
vulture1 said:
Rain is a great leveler. But not all quick people in the rain are quick in the dry.
That is because they don't have the quicker car. The rain reduces the impact of the car to some extent meaning it is the skill of the driver that is worth more. If all drivers had the same car those faster in the wet would most likely be the fastest in the dry too IMHO.ch37 said:
Dr Z said:
Rain is a leveller, but I'm not sure by how much. The cars aren't going as quickly as they are in the dry, but the principles of aerodynamics still apply, and a good car in the dry can still be a good car in the wet.
I'm struggling to understand how Russell was lapping at essentially the same pace as the Ferrari's. Yes, he's an exceptional talent and the Ferrari isn't great, but Leclerc was second last week so even so the gap should theoretically be still apparent.I think Hamilton, Verstappen, Ocon and Russell all proved that driver talent does make a difference yesterday.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not diminishing the talent of the drivers that did well, but equally I struggle to believe that guys like Norris or Ricciardo are all that slow against their better performing teammates as the gap from yesterday implies.
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