Does anyone have any knowledge of Ligiers?

[The Hypno-Toad]

Just a quick question.

The Ligier JS31 1988 car. Its the one with the 'unusual' engine/gearbox/fuel tank configuration.

The answer I need is did they run the drive from the engine either through the fuel tank or under it? I'm guessing it was a bit of damned if you, damned if you don't but running it through the tank sounds amazingly dangerous and running it under the tank must have added a huge amount of weight due to the glorified gearbox spacer that they would have had constructed.

I have looked all over the net and can't find an answer. There seems to be surprisingly few articles about the car and only couple of pictures of the engine in situ.

Thanks very much in advance.

[robbieduncan]

I have no knowledge but google image searches turn up these:





Looks like the fuel tank is quite high up and drive probable naturally went under without any weird spacers or anything like that

[The Hypno-Toad]

robbieduncan said:

I have no knowledge but google image searches turn up these:





Looks like the fuel tank is quite high up and drive probable naturally went under without any weird spacers or anything like that

Those are same two pictures I keep finding on the net. If only that bloody exhaust heat shielding wasn't there I'd have my answer!

[thegreenhell]

The Hypno-Toad said:

Just a quick question.

The Ligier JS31 1988 car. Its the one with the 'unusual' engine/gearbox/fuel tank configuration.

The answer I need is did they run the drive from the engine either through the fuel tank or under it? I'm guessing it was a bit of damned if you, damned if you don't but running it through the tank sounds amazingly dangerous and running it under the tank must have added a huge amount of weight due to the glorified gearbox spacer that they would have had constructed.

Wow, I'd never heard of this arrangement before, and I thought I was an F1 history nerd!

It appears that the fuel cell is contained within a structural carbonfibre box, and I would assume that the propshaft runs underneath in a recess, similar to how a propshaft runs in a transmission tunnel in a RWD road car. This carbonfibre box would in effect be the 'gearbox spacer', being bolted structurally in between the engine and gearbox. It also looks like there's a clutch bellhousing directly on the back of the engine with the oil tank above. You can see that they've added a couple of tubular struts from the main tub onto the fuel cell box to try to stiffen up the assembly.

I can't imagine the drive running through the middle of the fuel cell, as it would be almost impossible to assemble that way, and the shaft would only be a couple of inches above the floor of the car anyway.

My Autocourse History of the Grand Prix Car by Doug Nye briefly mentions this car, and suggests that it had this 70 litre fuel cell, plus additional 60 litre cells on either side of the cockpit, with a driver-selectable switch to choose which tank was in use, and thereby influence the weight distribution of the car as the fuel was used.

[LucyP]

Why don't you ask Ligier themselves? Their raison d'etre is historic racing cars.

www.ligierautomotive.com

[Exige77]

I think someone famous said “aerodynamics by Issac Newton, gravity is the only thing keeping it on the ground”

I gather it didn’t go well

[FourWheelDrift]

How's your French?

[The Hypno-Toad]

Exige77 said:

I think someone famous said “aerodynamics by Issac Newton, gravity is the only thing keeping it on the ground”

I gather it didn’t go well

That was Stefan Johansson if I remember correctly.

He was standing, staring at the car in the pits one practice session when Nigel Roebuck walked up to him.
"Got a match?" said Stefan.

He already had a cigarette on the go. ....

Thanks for the posts guys. As always on stuff like this, PH delivers.

[anonymous-user]

thegreenhell said:

I can't imagine the drive running through the middle of the fuel cell, as it would be almost impossible to assemble that way, and the shaft would only be a couple of inches above the floor of the car anyway.

It would be quite easy to make a fuel cell that went around the gearbox input shaft internal housing assembly, they are flexible enough to make it follow the shape of the tube in the middle then expand back out under that. You could then run one pickup per side, or if you hated the mechanics, have a join inside at the bottom.

Height of the input shaft will be nearer 4.5" than 2" from the floor on that generation of engine i would expect.

[dr_gn]

jsf said:

thegreenhell said:

I can't imagine the drive running through the middle of the fuel cell, as it would be almost impossible to assemble that way, and the shaft would only be a couple of inches above the floor of the car anyway.

It would be quite easy to make a fuel cell that went around the gearbox input shaft internal housing assembly, they are flexible enough to make it follow the shape of the tube in the middle then expand back out under that. You could then run one pickup per side, or if you hated the mechanics, have a join inside at the bottom.

Height of the input shaft will be nearer 4.5" than 2" from the floor on that generation of engine i would expect.

I’d have thought assembly wouldn’t be an issue; assuming the clutch is fitted to the crankshaft, surely the gearbox just has an extra long input shaft with a splined end that simply slots into the clutch in the normal way? It’s just a matter of bolting the fuel cell housing rigidly to the engine - like a bell housing. In the diagram the cell is shown with a hole through it, so if this is correct I don’t see much issue.

It was a beautiful looking car until they started cutting and shutting the bodywork. I remember watching on the approach to Abbey at the BGP practice in ‘88 - I was convinced I could see the exhausts glowing through the bodywork, but my pal insisted I was seeing things.

I’ve got a few pics, but nothing new really. Shame I didn’t pay more attention to the gearbox in the cockpit shot...







Even though it was a failure, I loved concepts like that, unthinkable these days.

[anonymous-user]

Not sure why you thought my explanation of the fuel cell arrangement meant it wouldnt be able to use a normal input shaft?

[dr_gn]

jsf said:

Not sure why you thought my explanation of the fuel cell arrangement meant it wouldnt be able to use a normal input shaft?

I was referring to thegreenhell’s comment you were quoting from, where they said assembly would be almost impossible.

I suppose I should have quoted direct from their comment, but couldn’t be bothered to find their original post.

[anonymous-user]

dr_gn said:

I was referring to thegreenhell’s comment you were quoting from, where they said assembly would be almost impossible.

I suppose I should have quoted direct from their comment, but couldn’t be bothered to find their original post.

Lazy

[The Hypno-Toad]

Part of the translation of the information on that drawing says that;

The tank placed between the engine and the gearbox it is like a second chassis with important anchoring points to the engine and to the hull, as well as to the gearbox.

Which helps a bit...

email to Ligier sent.. fingers crossed.

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Sunday 19th July 17:56

[The Hypno-Toad]

dr_gn said:

I’d have thought assembly wouldn’t be an issue; assuming the clutch is fitted to the crankshaft, surely the gearbox just has an extra long input shaft with a splined end that simply slots into the clutch in the normal way? It’s just a matter of bolting the fuel cell housing rigidly to the engine - like a bell housing. In the diagram the cell is shown with a hole through it, so if this is correct I don’t see much issue.

It was a beautiful looking car until they started cutting and shutting the bodywork. I remember watching on the approach to Abbey at the BGP practice in ‘88 - I was convinced I could see the exhausts glowing through the bodywork, but my pal insisted I was seeing things.

I’ve got a few pics, but nothing new really. Shame I didn’t pay more attention to the gearbox in the cockpit shot...







Even though it was a failure, I loved concepts like that, unthinkable these days.

Thank you for those pictures, it was a great looking car.

From what I can gather, they had decided that 1988 was pretty much written off as they expecting to get their lovely shiny Renault V10s in 1989, so they thought they would try something different. Unfortunately, the Renaults actually didn't turn up to 1991 and so they had two years of chugging round at the back with Ford and Lamborghini powered chassis still to come.

[dr_gn]

The Hypno-Toad said:

Part of the translation of the information on that drawing says that;

The tank placed between the engine and the gearbox it is like a second chassis with important anchoring points to the engine and to the hull, as well as to the gearbox.

Which helps a bit...

email to Ligier sent.. fingers crossed.

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Sunday 19th July 17:56

How come you want to know about it - are you making a model or something?

[dr_gn]

The Hypno-Toad said:

dr_gn said:

I’d have thought assembly wouldn’t be an issue; assuming the clutch is fitted to the crankshaft, surely the gearbox just has an extra long input shaft with a splined end that simply slots into the clutch in the normal way? It’s just a matter of bolting the fuel cell housing rigidly to the engine - like a bell housing. In the diagram the cell is shown with a hole through it, so if this is correct I don’t see much issue.

It was a beautiful looking car until they started cutting and shutting the bodywork. I remember watching on the approach to Abbey at the BGP practice in ‘88 - I was convinced I could see the exhausts glowing through the bodywork, but my pal insisted I was seeing things.

I’ve got a few pics, but nothing new really. Shame I didn’t pay more attention to the gearbox in the cockpit shot...







Even though it was a failure, I loved concepts like that, unthinkable these days.

Thank you for those pictures, it was a great looking car.

From what I can gather, they had decided that 1988 was pretty much written off as they expecting to get their lovely shiny Renault V10s in 1989, so they thought they would try something different. Unfortunately, the Renaults actually didn't turn up to 1991 and so they had two years of chugging round at the back with Ford and Lamborghini powered chassis still to come.

No worries. I'm gradually scanning and editing my '70's, '80's, 90's & 00's F1 images and uploading here in case anyone might find them useful for modelling references:

https://www.f1m.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t...

There are a few more random Ligier pics there.

[Insurancejon]

dr_gn said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

dr_gn said:

I’d have thought assembly wouldn’t be an issue; assuming the clutch is fitted to the crankshaft, surely the gearbox just has an extra long input shaft with a splined end that simply slots into the clutch in the normal way? It’s just a matter of bolting the fuel cell housing rigidly to the engine - like a bell housing. In the diagram the cell is shown with a hole through it, so if this is correct I don’t see much issue.

It was a beautiful looking car until they started cutting and shutting the bodywork. I remember watching on the approach to Abbey at the BGP practice in ‘88 - I was convinced I could see the exhausts glowing through the bodywork, but my pal insisted I was seeing things.

I’ve got a few pics, but nothing new really. Shame I didn’t pay more attention to the gearbox in the cockpit shot...







Even though it was a failure, I loved concepts like that, unthinkable these days.

Thank you for those pictures, it was a great looking car.

From what I can gather, they had decided that 1988 was pretty much written off as they expecting to get their lovely shiny Renault V10s in 1989, so they thought they would try something different. Unfortunately, the Renaults actually didn't turn up to 1991 and so they had two years of chugging round at the back with Ford and Lamborghini powered chassis still to come.

No worries. I'm gradually scanning and editing my '70's, '80's, 90's & 00's F1 images and uploading here in case anyone might find them useful for modelling references:

https://www.f1m.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t...

There are a few more random Ligier pics there.

Dr gn, I don’t suppose you have any pics of the 1988 eurobrun er188 do you?

I’m currently restoring one and gathering as many images of it as possible for livery reference.

For extra brownie points, specifically looking for ones of chassis 3 - which was driven by Stefano Modena largely

[dr_gn]

Insurancejon said:

dr_gn said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

dr_gn said:

I’d have thought assembly wouldn’t be an issue; assuming the clutch is fitted to the crankshaft, surely the gearbox just has an extra long input shaft with a splined end that simply slots into the clutch in the normal way? It’s just a matter of bolting the fuel cell housing rigidly to the engine - like a bell housing. In the diagram the cell is shown with a hole through it, so if this is correct I don’t see much issue.

It was a beautiful looking car until they started cutting and shutting the bodywork. I remember watching on the approach to Abbey at the BGP practice in ‘88 - I was convinced I could see the exhausts glowing through the bodywork, but my pal insisted I was seeing things.

I’ve got a few pics, but nothing new really. Shame I didn’t pay more attention to the gearbox in the cockpit shot...







Even though it was a failure, I loved concepts like that, unthinkable these days.

Thank you for those pictures, it was a great looking car.

From what I can gather, they had decided that 1988 was pretty much written off as they expecting to get their lovely shiny Renault V10s in 1989, so they thought they would try something different. Unfortunately, the Renaults actually didn't turn up to 1991 and so they had two years of chugging round at the back with Ford and Lamborghini powered chassis still to come.

No worries. I'm gradually scanning and editing my '70's, '80's, 90's & 00's F1 images and uploading here in case anyone might find them useful for modelling references:

https://www.f1m.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t...

There are a few more random Ligier pics there.

Dr gn, I don’t suppose you have any pics of the 1988 eurobrun er188 do you?

I’m currently restoring one and gathering as many images of it as possible for livery reference.

For extra brownie points, specifically looking for ones of chassis 3 - which was driven by Stefano Modena largely

Only one that I can remember, and that's a not particularly good on-track image. Ill try to find it later.

ETA I've not had a proper look yet, but I did find this website, which has some '88 BGP pits images on it:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/it-25-...

The Eurobrun is featured there.

Edited by dr_gn on Tuesday 21st July 13:52

[molineux1980]

The Hypno-Toad said:

That was Stefan Johansson if I remember correctly.

He was standing, staring at the car in the pits one practice session when Nigel Roebuck walked up to him.
"Got a match?" said Stefan.

He already had a cigarette on the go. ....

Thanks for the posts guys. As always on stuff like this, PH delivers.

Johansson mentioned this in the " Beyond the grid" podcast from a couple of weeks ago. He was a good guest on there.