So, who do we think is cheating?
Discussion
Interesting development:
https://www.planetf1.com/news/ers-storm-brewing/
What will be the punishment? Same as Ferrari last year...
Surely they can't give a penalty after protecting Ferrari last year for breaching Fuel flow measurement.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/ers-storm-brewing/
What will be the punishment? Same as Ferrari last year...
Surely they can't give a penalty after protecting Ferrari last year for breaching Fuel flow measurement.
Interesting... As I recall MB and RB shared info to uncover what Ferrari were up to so I guess not them. It's not a great idea to reveal how someone is cheating if you're doing the same thing yourself!
Renault desperate enough to try a similar cheat?? Or Honda without the knowledge of RB? - That would somewhat go against how the Japanese conduct themselves though.
Or... Are the FIA doing this to deflect interest from their actual problem - the RP debacle that they've made a pigs ear of thus far.
Renault desperate enough to try a similar cheat?? Or Honda without the knowledge of RB? - That would somewhat go against how the Japanese conduct themselves though.
Or... Are the FIA doing this to deflect interest from their actual problem - the RP debacle that they've made a pigs ear of thus far.
Doesn't surprise me at all. All the wording of the statements around the "party" mode changes strongly implied that the major reason for doing it was so they could be sure what was going on with the power units at all times as they suspected something was going on.
Probably won't be any punishments as the sensors (as with the Ferrari) are reading to the levels specified. They'll just make sure it can't be done from that point on. I haven't looked at the wording of the rules but if they say things along the lines of "x must not exceed y as measured by the FIA meter" then they've left themselves wide open to this sort of thing.
Probably won't be any punishments as the sensors (as with the Ferrari) are reading to the levels specified. They'll just make sure it can't be done from that point on. I haven't looked at the wording of the rules but if they say things along the lines of "x must not exceed y as measured by the FIA meter" then they've left themselves wide open to this sort of thing.
Kraken said:
Doesn't surprise me at all. All the wording of the statements around the "party" mode changes strongly implied that the major reason for doing it was so they could be sure what was going on with the power units at all times as they suspected something was going on.
Probably won't be any punishments as the sensors (as with the Ferrari) are reading to the levels specified. They'll just make sure it can't be done from that point on. I haven't looked at the wording of the rules but if they say things along the lines of "x must not exceed y as measured by the FIA meter" then they've left themselves wide open to this sort of thing.
Maybe they're doing it explore what capacity the teams have to undermine the new rules - and to adapt the rules to block it. It could be entirely pre-preemptive in order to make good of the new single PU mode regs.Probably won't be any punishments as the sensors (as with the Ferrari) are reading to the levels specified. They'll just make sure it can't be done from that point on. I haven't looked at the wording of the rules but if they say things along the lines of "x must not exceed y as measured by the FIA meter" then they've left themselves wide open to this sort of thing.
Given the comments by Leclerc that the ban on party mode wouldn't affect them as they didn't have one, I really feel that the party mode ban is likely to just be a bit of "Ferrari International Assistance" prior to the three races in Italy.
The latest development is more interesting, given the McLaren-Renaults have been broadly competitive and Red Bull are obviously up there it doesn't particularly feel as though there is much difference between two two non-Mercedes engine manufacturers that didn't have a secret deal.
We know Toto has been pretty angry all year that he burnt out his powertrain division trying to catch up with Ferrari, so I suppose it's just possible that Mercedes did push the limits and maybe that's why he's now mooting leaving at the end of the year. FIA have form here, with the Spygate denouement in 2007 resulting in Ron Dennis departing. Mclaren did go into a terminal decline, possibly as a result of his departure, which they are only just clawing their way out of now.
I suspect there is some horse-trading going on and we will never find out exactly what is transpiring.
Of course, Mercedes have a lot of margin so could dial back whatever they have done and still be in good shape. Perhaps that's all the FIA really want?
The latest development is more interesting, given the McLaren-Renaults have been broadly competitive and Red Bull are obviously up there it doesn't particularly feel as though there is much difference between two two non-Mercedes engine manufacturers that didn't have a secret deal.
We know Toto has been pretty angry all year that he burnt out his powertrain division trying to catch up with Ferrari, so I suppose it's just possible that Mercedes did push the limits and maybe that's why he's now mooting leaving at the end of the year. FIA have form here, with the Spygate denouement in 2007 resulting in Ron Dennis departing. Mclaren did go into a terminal decline, possibly as a result of his departure, which they are only just clawing their way out of now.
I suspect there is some horse-trading going on and we will never find out exactly what is transpiring.
Of course, Mercedes have a lot of margin so could dial back whatever they have done and still be in good shape. Perhaps that's all the FIA really want?
The article misses that this TD was announced in 4th Aug.
We’ve had two rounds since then, any CE or MGU k changes (yep)..
Translated from AMuS
The rest of the text of the Technical Directive makes it clear where the FIA suspects possible traps. Namely at the interfaces between the high-voltage network and the auxiliary circuits with less voltage. The connections from the battery to various control units that monitor the ERS system are usually not connected to the high-voltage circuit. And that's exactly where it is obviously possible to disrupt or change the current measurement. That would have the same effect as Ferrari's alleged manipulation of the flow rate measurement. You could feed more power into the system via the MGU-K than the permitted 163 hp.
The fingers are pointing at Red Bull paddock wise.
We’ve had two rounds since then, any CE or MGU k changes (yep)..
Translated from AMuS
The rest of the text of the Technical Directive makes it clear where the FIA suspects possible traps. Namely at the interfaces between the high-voltage network and the auxiliary circuits with less voltage. The connections from the battery to various control units that monitor the ERS system are usually not connected to the high-voltage circuit. And that's exactly where it is obviously possible to disrupt or change the current measurement. That would have the same effect as Ferrari's alleged manipulation of the flow rate measurement. You could feed more power into the system via the MGU-K than the permitted 163 hp.
The fingers are pointing at Red Bull paddock wise.
TheDeuce said:
Interesting... As I recall MB and RB shared info to uncover what Ferrari were up to so I guess not them. It's not a great idea to reveal how someone is cheating if you're doing the same thing yourself!
Renault desperate enough to try a similar cheat?? Or Honda without the knowledge of RB? - That would somewhat go against how the Japanese conduct themselves though.
Or... Are the FIA doing this to deflect interest from their actual problem - the RP debacle that they've made a pigs ear of thus far.
Doesn't sound like it's the same thing. Ferrari were pumping more fuel into the IC engine. To me it reads like this new cheat is pumping more electrons into the electric motor (or more watts out of it).Renault desperate enough to try a similar cheat?? Or Honda without the knowledge of RB? - That would somewhat go against how the Japanese conduct themselves though.
Or... Are the FIA doing this to deflect interest from their actual problem - the RP debacle that they've made a pigs ear of thus far.
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
Interesting... As I recall MB and RB shared info to uncover what Ferrari were up to so I guess not them. It's not a great idea to reveal how someone is cheating if you're doing the same thing yourself!
Renault desperate enough to try a similar cheat?? Or Honda without the knowledge of RB? - That would somewhat go against how the Japanese conduct themselves though.
Or... Are the FIA doing this to deflect interest from their actual problem - the RP debacle that they've made a pigs ear of thus far.
Doesn't sound like it's the same thing. Ferrari were pumping more fuel into the IC engine. To me it reads like this new cheat is pumping more electrons into the electric motor (or more watts out of it).Renault desperate enough to try a similar cheat?? Or Honda without the knowledge of RB? - That would somewhat go against how the Japanese conduct themselves though.
Or... Are the FIA doing this to deflect interest from their actual problem - the RP debacle that they've made a pigs ear of thus far.
If there is anything in the rumour, there may not be. Also this all might magically disappear now the ten teams have signed the new Concorde agreement.
Deesee said:
The fingers are pointing at Red Bull paddock wise.
Wiffs of Benetton of 1994 about that car I feel. Plus Honda F1 are based in the UK, so the idea of it not being very Japanese like would be correct. Given that I don't think - if there is a bit of naughtiness with the engine - the decision would've been made in Japan.
Still, it's all very clever isn't it? The cheating aspect of the sport is sometimes far more interesting than what the engineer's produce inside of the rules.
sgtBerbatov said:
The cheating aspect of the sport is sometimes far more interesting than what the engineer's produce inside of the rules.
Yes - partly because the definition of cheating is sometimes a bit vague. To the average punter it's cheating. To an engineer it's testing the definition of a rule.Adrian Newey covers the subject in his book and is quite eye-opening.
sgtBerbatov said:
Wiffs of Benetton of 1994 about that car I feel.
Plus Honda F1 are based in the UK, so the idea of it not being very Japanese like would be correct. Given that I don't think - if there is a bit of naughtiness with the engine - the decision would've been made in Japan.
Still, it's all very clever isn't it? The cheating aspect of the sport is sometimes far more interesting than what the engineer's produce inside of the rules.
If you're saying that cheating is not in the Japanese culture, I'm not sure about that. I would agree that Honda have in the past refused to take shortcuts to improve their development times, and insisted of doing everything by the spirit and letter of the book, but on the other end of the scale, Toyota engineered one of the most innovative and best executed cheats in motor racing history.Plus Honda F1 are based in the UK, so the idea of it not being very Japanese like would be correct. Given that I don't think - if there is a bit of naughtiness with the engine - the decision would've been made in Japan.
Still, it's all very clever isn't it? The cheating aspect of the sport is sometimes far more interesting than what the engineer's produce inside of the rules.
Actually, saying that, we can only compare cheats that got caught and we know about, so the best we know about would arguably be well short of the ones we never heard of, I suppose...
sgtBerbatov said:
Deesee said:
The fingers are pointing at Red Bull paddock wise.
Wiffs of Benetton of 1994 about that car I feel. Plus Honda F1 are based in the UK, so the idea of it not being very Japanese like would be correct. Given that I don't think - if there is a bit of naughtiness with the engine - the decision would've been made in Japan.
Still, it's all very clever isn't it? The cheating aspect of the sport is sometimes far more interesting than what the engineer's produce inside of the rules.
kiseca said:
If you're saying that cheating is not in the Japanese culture,....
....Toyota engineered one of the most innovative and best executed cheats in motor racing history.
It was Toyota Team Europe (now 'Gazoo racing?) who ran the rally team cars really, from Germany, not really much Japanese culture in there other than sending them the original cars off the production line. ....Toyota engineered one of the most innovative and best executed cheats in motor racing history.
I'm also inclined to think its unlikely to be Honda, for some reason. Naive maybe, but hey.
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
Interesting... As I recall MB and RB shared info to uncover what Ferrari were up to so I guess not them. It's not a great idea to reveal how someone is cheating if you're doing the same thing yourself!
Renault desperate enough to try a similar cheat?? Or Honda without the knowledge of RB? - That would somewhat go against how the Japanese conduct themselves though.
Or... Are the FIA doing this to deflect interest from their actual problem - the RP debacle that they've made a pigs ear of thus far.
Doesn't sound like it's the same thing. Ferrari were pumping more fuel into the IC engine. To me it reads like this new cheat is pumping more electrons into the electric motor (or more watts out of it).Renault desperate enough to try a similar cheat?? Or Honda without the knowledge of RB? - That would somewhat go against how the Japanese conduct themselves though.
Or... Are the FIA doing this to deflect interest from their actual problem - the RP debacle that they've made a pigs ear of thus far.
Coincidence that Toto is considering his future ?? surely not?
Donkeys turn into mules?
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