The "best" versus the "greatest"...
Poll: The "best" versus the "greatest"...
Total Members Polled: 63
Discussion
All preconceived arguments are fundamentally wrong.
Now here's an import distinction. The "greatest" can easily be construed as a matter of factual gross numbers - who has the highest digital number of any attribute. To be the GOAT has to have the highest numerical total and that is easy to determine by statistics. And even in detail, these are in arguable as a matter of fact either by percentage, hit-rate or accumulative total, regardless of mitigating circumstances. For that there is only one answer, very shortly likely to change...
For discussion, the bigger question is; who is the BOAT.
As I like to put it there is the;
GOAT - Greatest Of All Time - Schumacher/Hamilton elect
GOTE - Greatest Of Their Era - Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton
BOAT - Best Of All Time - ??? That's a discussion...
The BOAT would refer to someone who is timeless. Who transcends era's, formats, competition, rules and conditions.
If all were put in the same car, in their prime, with the same experience and training... who would have that gift to come out on top?
Now here's an import distinction. The "greatest" can easily be construed as a matter of factual gross numbers - who has the highest digital number of any attribute. To be the GOAT has to have the highest numerical total and that is easy to determine by statistics. And even in detail, these are in arguable as a matter of fact either by percentage, hit-rate or accumulative total, regardless of mitigating circumstances. For that there is only one answer, very shortly likely to change...
For discussion, the bigger question is; who is the BOAT.
As I like to put it there is the;
GOAT - Greatest Of All Time - Schumacher/Hamilton elect
GOTE - Greatest Of Their Era - Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton
BOAT - Best Of All Time - ??? That's a discussion...
The BOAT would refer to someone who is timeless. Who transcends era's, formats, competition, rules and conditions.
If all were put in the same car, in their prime, with the same experience and training... who would have that gift to come out on top?
Hamilton for me but then I didn't watch anyone pre-Lauda. And that was his second coming!
Anyone who says Hamilton wouldn't have won in any other era doesn't know what they were on about. He drives to the cars ability, rarely crashes and is easily faster than his peers over a single lap as well as race distance.
The fact he does it all while being completely fair and more sporting than any other multiple world champion puts him at the top for me.
(I don't dislike people for their fashion, hairstyles or skin colour mind you).
Anyone who says Hamilton wouldn't have won in any other era doesn't know what they were on about. He drives to the cars ability, rarely crashes and is easily faster than his peers over a single lap as well as race distance.
The fact he does it all while being completely fair and more sporting than any other multiple world champion puts him at the top for me.
(I don't dislike people for their fashion, hairstyles or skin colour mind you).
What's the distinction between "best" and "greatest"?
My definition of "best" would look beyond the driving skills and track achievements - and also examine the character. If that is the definition of "best", then Senna and Schumacher drop down the listing dramatically as they both exhibited drastically flawed aspects to their character when on track.
On that score, I would put either Clark or Fangio up there vying for best because both of them were utter gentlemen on the circuit.
My definition of "best" would look beyond the driving skills and track achievements - and also examine the character. If that is the definition of "best", then Senna and Schumacher drop down the listing dramatically as they both exhibited drastically flawed aspects to their character when on track.
On that score, I would put either Clark or Fangio up there vying for best because both of them were utter gentlemen on the circuit.
mattikake said:
All preconceived arguments are fundamentally wrong.
Now here's an import distinction. The "greatest" can easily be construed as a matter of factual gross numbers - who has the highest digital number of any attribute. To be the GOAT has to have the highest numerical total and that is easy to determine by statistics. And even in detail, these are in arguable as a matter of fact either by percentage, hit-rate or accumulative total, regardless of mitigating circumstances. For that there is only one answer, very shortly likely to change...
For discussion, the bigger question is; who is the BOAT.
As I like to put it there is the;
GOAT - Greatest Of All Time - Schumacher/Hamilton elect
GOTE - Greatest Of Their Era - Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton
BOAT - Best Of All Time - ??? That's a discussion...
The BOAT would refer to someone who is timeless. Who transcends era's, formats, competition, rules and conditions.
If all were put in the same car, in their prime, with the same experience and training... who would have that gift to come out on top?
The BOAT would have to be some kind of immortal, time travelling entity who for some reason is interested in formula one?Now here's an import distinction. The "greatest" can easily be construed as a matter of factual gross numbers - who has the highest digital number of any attribute. To be the GOAT has to have the highest numerical total and that is easy to determine by statistics. And even in detail, these are in arguable as a matter of fact either by percentage, hit-rate or accumulative total, regardless of mitigating circumstances. For that there is only one answer, very shortly likely to change...
For discussion, the bigger question is; who is the BOAT.
As I like to put it there is the;
GOAT - Greatest Of All Time - Schumacher/Hamilton elect
GOTE - Greatest Of Their Era - Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton
BOAT - Best Of All Time - ??? That's a discussion...
The BOAT would refer to someone who is timeless. Who transcends era's, formats, competition, rules and conditions.
If all were put in the same car, in their prime, with the same experience and training... who would have that gift to come out on top?
I think surely this matter can only be settled in the MOATOTGOATYOMOIW
motherofallthreadsonthegreatestofalltimeyetonlymyopinionisworthwhile
I think the best would have to be Schumacher or Hamilton, for pure winning and numerous manufacturers.
The greatest for me is the one that matters, Prost, Clark, Stewart, Fangio, Ascari, G Hill, Jack all candidates. But Jimmy always for me, made everyone else look silly even his peers.
The greatest for me is the one that matters, Prost, Clark, Stewart, Fangio, Ascari, G Hill, Jack all candidates. But Jimmy always for me, made everyone else look silly even his peers.
mattikake said:
All preconceived arguments are fundamentally wrong.
Now here's an import distinction. The "greatest" can easily be construed as a matter of factual gross numbers - who has the highest digital number of any attribute. To be the GOAT has to have the highest numerical total and that is easy to determine by statistics. And even in detail, these are in arguable as a matter of fact either by percentage, hit-rate or accumulative total, regardless of mitigating circumstances. For that there is only one answer, very shortly likely to change...
For discussion, the bigger question is; who is the BOAT.
As I like to put it there is the;
GOAT - Greatest Of All Time - Schumacher/Hamilton elect
GOTE - Greatest Of Their Era - Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton
BOAT - Best Of All Time - ??? That's a discussion...
The BOAT would refer to someone who is timeless. Who transcends era's, formats, competition, rules and conditions.
If all were put in the same car, in their prime, with the same experience and training... who would have that gift to come out on top?
I think you’ve got this the wrong way round. “Greatness” can not be quantified as it’s subjective, being the “best” at something though is easily quantifiable based on results etc. Usain Bolt is the best 100m sprinter, he holds the world record. Surely that’s the baseline, if you want to be better than Bolt, run a new world record. Was Bolt the greatest though? probably, but it’s open to debate.Now here's an import distinction. The "greatest" can easily be construed as a matter of factual gross numbers - who has the highest digital number of any attribute. To be the GOAT has to have the highest numerical total and that is easy to determine by statistics. And even in detail, these are in arguable as a matter of fact either by percentage, hit-rate or accumulative total, regardless of mitigating circumstances. For that there is only one answer, very shortly likely to change...
For discussion, the bigger question is; who is the BOAT.
As I like to put it there is the;
GOAT - Greatest Of All Time - Schumacher/Hamilton elect
GOTE - Greatest Of Their Era - Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton
BOAT - Best Of All Time - ??? That's a discussion...
The BOAT would refer to someone who is timeless. Who transcends era's, formats, competition, rules and conditions.
If all were put in the same car, in their prime, with the same experience and training... who would have that gift to come out on top?
Schumacher was the best F1 driver, he holds all sorts of records from most championships to most fastest laps. He wasn’t, imho, the greatest though.
When Ali declared himself to be the greatest, he didn’t have the most wins under his belt, it was just a self proclamation. If I say “I am better than you”, you respond with “prove it....” and the onus is on me to achieve something you can not. Greatness can not be quantified as you describe.
Anyway, whichever way it is described, the best F1 driver when statistics are ignored and character and appeal are valued was Jim Clark.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 22 August 18:40
DoubleD said:
Stats have to also come into it otherwise its just opinion.
That’s the point! “best” is quantifiable, it’s not an opinion. I can prove I am better than you at something. “greatest” is not quantifiable, it’s an opinion. What’s the measure of greatness? it can’t be stats, thus GOAT is an opinion, BOAT is objective. pablo said:
DoubleD said:
Stats have to also come into it otherwise its just opinion.
That’s the point! “best” is quantifiable, it’s not an opinion. I can prove I am better than you at something. “greatest” is not quantifiable, it’s an opinion. What’s the measure of greatness? it can’t be stats, thus GOAT is an opinion, BOAT is objective. Well the point I was trying to define is "great/greatest" would imply numbers - the highest tally or quantifiable statistics. Something that is provable by maths.
"Best" would be an opinion or gut feeling that is not provable by numbers.
The greatest country in the world in an economic order could be measured by number - national wealth or GDP. The best country in the world would be more about individual personal experience.
"Best" would be an opinion or gut feeling that is not provable by numbers.
The greatest country in the world in an economic order could be measured by number - national wealth or GDP. The best country in the world would be more about individual personal experience.
mattikake said:
Well the point I was trying to define is "great/greatest" would imply numbers - the highest tally or quantifiable statistics. Something that is provable by maths.
"Best" would be an opinion or gut feeling that is not provable by numbers.
The greatest country in the world in an economic order could be measured by number - national wealth or GDP. The best country in the world would be more about individual personal experience.
I agree with pablo that for me I feel like it's the other way around. Best is statistically definable (so would be probably Schumacher currently and then shortly, Hamilton once he has equalled / taken Schumacher's records for championships / wins), whereas greatest is more abstract."Best" would be an opinion or gut feeling that is not provable by numbers.
The greatest country in the world in an economic order could be measured by number - national wealth or GDP. The best country in the world would be more about individual personal experience.
I don't know why but that's just how the words sit in my head
I appreciate the ridiculousness of a thread about BOAT/GOAT having already descended in to questions of the definition of best / greatest when the first post set out to defined what they meant by best / greatest, so my apologies.
I think the best (or by your definition, greatest) is Hamilton, greatest (or by your definition, best), maybe Jim Clark although really I'm quite ill informed on the various competitors for that title (by whoever's definition
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