Track limits (an idea)
Discussion
Something that really annoys me watching F1 is that despite the "harsh policing" of track limits, there still seems to be almost no impact in lots of scenarios where cars are sliding off the circuit.
How about the following idea? I think it's something that could easily be trialled at a few races to see what it does:
Core rule: You must have a tyre in contact with the track (between and including the white lines) at all times. The current rule with kerbs being part of the track is confusing and makes things worse. Why not have a simple rule like every other sport ie the lines are "in" (but kerbs are "out"). Broadly this is going to mean that they can use the actual kerbs on the apex, and corner exit with their outside wheel (as they're supposed to be used!), but can't fragrantly drive the car off the circuit.
Qually: Pretty much same rule as today. Any breech of track limits during the lap has your lap deleted (and potentially the previous or next lap if it's possible that the breech impacted it).
Race: Any breech receives a 5 second penalty, regardless of reason. Receiving a 3rd penalty results in a drive-through which "serves" all three penalties (assuming the drive-through takes at least 15 seconds. May have to be a stop-go penalty at certain tracks if not).
The only exception to the above would be a special case where the driver was avoiding debris, or a out of control car in a place they could not have predicted or avoided in another way (ie, if you CAN go a longer way round the car within track limits, then you should do that).
I WOULD apply the penalty if you drive off the circuit to avoid a collision with a driver you're racing/trying to overtake. You have 2 options, hold your line, or back out. If it's deemed the other driver did not give you adequate space then they will of course take a penalty.
So, for example, all those people understeering off the bus-stop at Spa would have received penalties. While it could be argued that this will just make drivers even more conservative as their tyres are degrading, I actually think that would be a good thing. It will create an even bigger differential between those conserving tyres at all costs, and those willing to take some risk.
Keen to hear thoughts and challenges?
How about the following idea? I think it's something that could easily be trialled at a few races to see what it does:
Core rule: You must have a tyre in contact with the track (between and including the white lines) at all times. The current rule with kerbs being part of the track is confusing and makes things worse. Why not have a simple rule like every other sport ie the lines are "in" (but kerbs are "out"). Broadly this is going to mean that they can use the actual kerbs on the apex, and corner exit with their outside wheel (as they're supposed to be used!), but can't fragrantly drive the car off the circuit.
Qually: Pretty much same rule as today. Any breech of track limits during the lap has your lap deleted (and potentially the previous or next lap if it's possible that the breech impacted it).
Race: Any breech receives a 5 second penalty, regardless of reason. Receiving a 3rd penalty results in a drive-through which "serves" all three penalties (assuming the drive-through takes at least 15 seconds. May have to be a stop-go penalty at certain tracks if not).
The only exception to the above would be a special case where the driver was avoiding debris, or a out of control car in a place they could not have predicted or avoided in another way (ie, if you CAN go a longer way round the car within track limits, then you should do that).
I WOULD apply the penalty if you drive off the circuit to avoid a collision with a driver you're racing/trying to overtake. You have 2 options, hold your line, or back out. If it's deemed the other driver did not give you adequate space then they will of course take a penalty.
So, for example, all those people understeering off the bus-stop at Spa would have received penalties. While it could be argued that this will just make drivers even more conservative as their tyres are degrading, I actually think that would be a good thing. It will create an even bigger differential between those conserving tyres at all costs, and those willing to take some risk.
Keen to hear thoughts and challenges?
It is certainly a frustrating element of F1 in that they make a big deal of it leading into the weekend but rarely enforce it. Whilst I understand your ideas I don't think they are practical.
Removing kerbs completely would also have the added benefit of going away from the awkward situation where tracks have to think about kerbs being suitable for F1 but not being safe for MotoGP. This is a common reason for the big flat kerbs that the drivers take liberties on anyway.
hufggfg said:
Core rule: You must have a tyre in contact with the track (between and including the white lines) at all times. The current rule with kerbs being part of the track is confusing and makes things worse. Why not have a simple rule like every other sport ie the lines are "in" (but kerbs are "out"). Broadly this is going to mean that they can use the actual kerbs on the apex, and corner exit with their outside wheel (as they're supposed to be used!), but can't fragrantly drive the car off the circuit.
I agree that the white line should be the limit and not the far edge of the kerb, however to my mind a better approach would be to just remove all the exit kerbs. The white line dictates the track limit anyway so they are not really needed. If they are not there then they cannot be used and then there is no ambiguity if you do cross the white line on corner exit. Removing kerbs completely would also have the added benefit of going away from the awkward situation where tracks have to think about kerbs being suitable for F1 but not being safe for MotoGP. This is a common reason for the big flat kerbs that the drivers take liberties on anyway.
hufggfg said:
I WOULD apply the penalty if you drive off the circuit to avoid a collision with a driver you're racing/trying to overtake. You have 2 options, hold your line, or back out. If it's deemed the other driver did not give you adequate space then they will of course take a penalty.
To me that would essentially remove any incentive to pass around the outside as it is highly likely you will get a penalty if you get it wrong. I can understand a penalty if you went off track and completed the pass or gained a lasting advantage but there needs to be some consideration and flexibility in that rule when cars are wheel to wheel otherwise you just destroy the racing.I hear what you say but of all things that might improve F1, track limits aren't on the list (IMO). Where cars do exceed them in a race, rarely is any advantage gained and in qualifying, they do tend to get policed quite vigorously as it stands.
Gravel traps used to be a better deterrent but could end up with a driver out of the race for an otherwise minor slip and nowadays, you'd have a safety car out every couple of laps whilst beached cars could be recovered.
It's difficult to gauge just how violent the kerbs are on some circuits from watching on TV. Drive over them in a road car and you'd loose teeth and trim - quite how they manage it in an unsprung F1 car is anyone's guess but they do bite.
Gravel traps used to be a better deterrent but could end up with a driver out of the race for an otherwise minor slip and nowadays, you'd have a safety car out every couple of laps whilst beached cars could be recovered.
It's difficult to gauge just how violent the kerbs are on some circuits from watching on TV. Drive over them in a road car and you'd loose teeth and trim - quite how they manage it in an unsprung F1 car is anyone's guess but they do bite.
angrymoby said:
Even football fans manage to understand the offside rule (well, mostly 
)
I think football fans would have something to say if the ref didn't blow the whistle when a player was offside though wouldn't they?? )Flagrantly driving beyond the kerb and then finding the stewards do nothing about it is the very issue the original poster is talking about.
It's the F1 equivalent of being offside, but unlike football it is regularly not dealt with in F1.
TwentyFive said:
angrymoby said:
Even football fans manage to understand the offside rule (well, mostly )
I think football fans would have something to say if the ref didn't blow the whistle when a player was offside though wouldn't they?? )Flagrantly driving beyond the kerb and then finding the stewards do nothing about it is the very issue the original poster is talking about.
It's the F1 equivalent of being offside, but unlike football it is regularly not dealt with in F1.
So the tech is there to catch it in real time, but the FIA don't seem to be interested in going down this route with it.
sgtBerbatov said:
Can't remember where I heard it or seen it, but there was/is a company in the UK that put little metal strips in to the kerbs at the designated limit. They were all wired up to race control, and if a car went over it (using an RFID chip I think), race control would be notified that the car went beyond track limits. And if I remember correctly, it was being used in lower formula races in the UK.
So the tech is there to catch it in real time, but the FIA don't seem to be interested in going down this route with it.
Yes I know the BTCC and support series put down pressure pads (such as the exit of Copse) and those are triggered when a car exceeds track limits. They have been around for years but as you say the FIA haven't brought them to F1.So the tech is there to catch it in real time, but the FIA don't seem to be interested in going down this route with it.
TwentyFive said:
sgtBerbatov said:
Can't remember where I heard it or seen it, but there was/is a company in the UK that put little metal strips in to the kerbs at the designated limit. They were all wired up to race control, and if a car went over it (using an RFID chip I think), race control would be notified that the car went beyond track limits. And if I remember correctly, it was being used in lower formula races in the UK.
So the tech is there to catch it in real time, but the FIA don't seem to be interested in going down this route with it.
Yes I know the BTCC and support series put down pressure pads (such as the exit of Copse) and those are triggered when a car exceeds track limits. They have been around for years but as you say the FIA haven't brought them to F1.So the tech is there to catch it in real time, but the FIA don't seem to be interested in going down this route with it.
sgtBerbatov said:
I'm just glad I didn't dream it!
It's not BTCC as such. It's MSV circuits. Mr Palmer doesn't like the costs of continually repairing the grass because drivers are too lazy to actually drive the designated circuit. So he pushed for new tracklimits rules and put pressure pads down at corners like Graham Hill at Brands to catch the culprits.I believe they even have them on for trackdays and you get a ticking off if your car shows up on the screens.
TwentyFive said:
angrymoby said:
Even football fans manage to understand the offside rule (well, mostly )
I think football fans would have something to say if the ref didn't blow the whistle when a player was offside though wouldn't they?? )Flagrantly driving beyond the kerb and then finding the stewards do nothing about it is the very issue the original poster is talking about.
It's the F1 equivalent of being offside, but unlike football it is regularly not dealt with in F1.
The responses seem to be a fascinating mix of "don't change anything, it's not really an issue", and sarcastically extreme responses which would suggest that lots of people DO find it a problem.
I actually do think that a good rule set on track limits (not that I've necessarily found it!), would do a lot to create better racing. Right now, there are lots of situations where we're denied the drivers actually having to drive in a skilful manner, as the lower risk choice for them is just to run off the circuit.
I actually do think that a good rule set on track limits (not that I've necessarily found it!), would do a lot to create better racing. Right now, there are lots of situations where we're denied the drivers actually having to drive in a skilful manner, as the lower risk choice for them is just to run off the circuit.
sgtBerbatov said:
Can't remember where I heard it or seen it, but there was/is a company in the UK that put little metal strips in to the kerbs at the designated limit. They were all wired up to race control, and if a car went over it (using an RFID chip I think), race control would be notified that the car went beyond track limits. And if I remember correctly, it was being used in lower formula races in the UK.
So the tech is there to catch it in real time, but the FIA don't seem to be interested in going down this route with it.
Some MSV circuits have pressure pads and will photograph your transgression. So the tech is there to catch it in real time, but the FIA don't seem to be interested in going down this route with it.
TwentyFive said:
I think football fans would have something to say if the ref didn't blow the whistle when a player was offside though wouldn't they??
Flagrantly driving beyond the kerb and then finding the stewards do nothing about it is the very issue the original poster is talking about.
It's the F1 equivalent of being offside, but unlike football it is regularly not dealt with in F1.
fans had the exact opposite view, that over zealous officiating of the offside rule was ruining the game ...so they introduced the rule that a player can be in an offside position, but not technically offside (active play rule)Flagrantly driving beyond the kerb and then finding the stewards do nothing about it is the very issue the original poster is talking about.
It's the F1 equivalent of being offside, but unlike football it is regularly not dealt with in F1.
in motorsport, as long as there is no 'gain' in terms of lap time i don't see the point of penalizing every transgression
thegreenhell said:
Imagine if the offside rule was changed every week, sometimes called and sometimes not. That is how the track limits seems to be implemented, changing from race to race. If they just had a rule and were consistent in policing it then it would be an improvement.
the issue isn't that the rules change every week ...it's just that 'we' the punters aren't party to the rules, as we're not party to the driver briefings where track limits are discussed (well, they were under Charlie's watch)Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff