Eventually a fan of Lewis.
Discussion
I’ve not been the biggest fan of Lewis Hamilton because I thought so much was handed to him by initially McLaren and then Mercedes and I’ve not been a fan of his woke thoughts but somewhere this season I’ve been hoping that he set new records. As far as motor racing is concerned he has shown respect to those before him, despite some very dated comments towards him from some from the 70s, and the humility he showed today was inspiring.
I now wish that he goes on and wins more championships and is a standard bearer for F1 leading it into the future for teams, propulsion and diversity.
Without it being said that the past was wrong, privileged and racist. Because it wasn’t. Many raced F1 cars without money, had varied backgrounds and nationalities, but all could steer a car with their feet performing miracles. Some died hoping to achieve stardom but today is a different ballpark.
So as I’ve done, recognise Lewis as a Champion because he surely deserves it. Let’s hope some see the obstacles he’s overcome as being ones they can overcome to be champions, no matter the sport they compete in.
I now wish that he goes on and wins more championships and is a standard bearer for F1 leading it into the future for teams, propulsion and diversity.
Without it being said that the past was wrong, privileged and racist. Because it wasn’t. Many raced F1 cars without money, had varied backgrounds and nationalities, but all could steer a car with their feet performing miracles. Some died hoping to achieve stardom but today is a different ballpark.
So as I’ve done, recognise Lewis as a Champion because he surely deserves it. Let’s hope some see the obstacles he’s overcome as being ones they can overcome to be champions, no matter the sport they compete in.
I've always been a fan of his, granted he has almost always had at least race winning machinery at some point in each season, but those judgment calls outside of the car is what makes him great.
Going to Mercedes wasn't a easy choice, no one would have imagined they would be as dominant as they were when he signed the contract. An awful lot of people were saying he was making a mistake leaving McLaren. Whether it was luck or good judgment that Mercedes has turned out how they have is up for you to decide.
In the car he has never resorted to dirty tricks, something that both Schumacher and Senna were prone to in their careers.
His qualifying is supreme, his maturity allows him to win races like today. If it wasn't for McLaren leaving him out on inters in China 07 and his engine exploding in Malaysia 2016 he would be a 9 times champion today.
Once Verstappen gets rid of his bad luck and mistakes through over eagerness I can see him rapidly catching Hamiltons records, as long as he makes the correct career choices as Lewis has.
Going to Mercedes wasn't a easy choice, no one would have imagined they would be as dominant as they were when he signed the contract. An awful lot of people were saying he was making a mistake leaving McLaren. Whether it was luck or good judgment that Mercedes has turned out how they have is up for you to decide.
In the car he has never resorted to dirty tricks, something that both Schumacher and Senna were prone to in their careers.
His qualifying is supreme, his maturity allows him to win races like today. If it wasn't for McLaren leaving him out on inters in China 07 and his engine exploding in Malaysia 2016 he would be a 9 times champion today.
Once Verstappen gets rid of his bad luck and mistakes through over eagerness I can see him rapidly catching Hamiltons records, as long as he makes the correct career choices as Lewis has.
Edited by WonkeyDonkey on Sunday 15th November 23:30
WonkeyDonkey said:
Once Verstappen gets rid of his bad luck and mistakes through over eagerness I can see him rapidly catching Hamiltons records, as long as he makes the correct career choices as Lewis has.
Apart from the fact that the darling Max couldn't keep it in a straight line yesterday and we therefore assume he's gonna take another year to get rid of his "bad luck and mistakes through over eagerness" that means we're talking at least 8 years before he has any chance of getting close to Hamiltons records. That's hardly "rapidly" at the top level of any sport. Never mind the fact that Lewis would need to walk away tomorrow to stop his record tally getting bigger still. Edited by WonkeyDonkey on Sunday 15th November 23:30
You're living in dream land. There's no more than two WDC in him before he self implodes with his own self righteousness. Much like Alonso.
Edited by Harry H on Monday 16th November 10:11
Harry H said:
WonkeyDonkey said:
Once Verstappen gets rid of his bad luck and mistakes through over eagerness I can see him rapidly catching Hamiltons records, as long as he makes the correct career choices as Lewis has.
Apart from the fact that the darling Max couldn't keep it in a straight line yesterday and we therefore assume he's gonna take another year to get rid of his "bad luck and mistakes through over eagerness" that means we're talking at least 8 years before he has any chance of getting close to Hamiltons records. That's hardly "rapidly" at the top level of any sport.Edited by WonkeyDonkey on Sunday 15th November 23:30
You're living in dream land. There's no more than two WDC in him before he self implodes with his own self righteousness. Much like Alonso.
i know youth is still on his side, but by this years performace it would be hard to see Max winning next year and who knows what the new regs will bring
WickerBill said:
i think the problem is, people still think of Max as the new kid on the block.....hes what, 5 or 6 years into his F1 career now?
i know youth is still on his side, but by this years performace it would be hard to see Max winning next year and who knows what the new regs will bring
And look at the podium yesterday. A wet slippery track is a great equaliser for the cars and it was experience and maturity that shone through. The young guns were all over the place. i know youth is still on his side, but by this years performace it would be hard to see Max winning next year and who knows what the new regs will bring
Harry H said:
And look at the podium yesterday. A wet slippery track is a great equaliser for the cars and it was experience and maturity that shone through. The young guns were all over the place.
indeed.dont get me wrong, i think Max has as much raw speed as hamilton. he is insanely talented, but hes not learned to temper his aggression.
To be fair, that comes with experience and took hamilton a while to learn too.
I was also never a big fan, but over the last few years he has matured and not only does he drive a fast strategic race, but off the track he comes across as sensible and considered and has potential do do big things there as well as on the tarmac.
I have grown to respect him, he is undoubtedly a superb driver, he doesn't come from the background of advantage than many driver come from and he works hard and is focused.
I have grown to respect him, he is undoubtedly a superb driver, he doesn't come from the background of advantage than many driver come from and he works hard and is focused.
WickerBill said:
indeed.
dont get me wrong, i think Max has as much raw speed as hamilton. he is insanely talented, but hes not learned to temper his aggression.
To be fair, that comes with experience and took hamilton a while to learn too.
Agree with this.dont get me wrong, i think Max has as much raw speed as hamilton. he is insanely talented, but hes not learned to temper his aggression.
To be fair, that comes with experience and took hamilton a while to learn too.
The RedBull has unstable aero / downforce all season and that was really shining through in Instanbul
Will be interesting to see how SV does at Racing Point / Aston next season - I thought Vettel was all washed out
WickerBill said:
Harry H said:
And look at the podium yesterday. A wet slippery track is a great equaliser for the cars and it was experience and maturity that shone through. The young guns were all over the place.
indeed.dont get me wrong, i think Max has as much raw speed as hamilton. he is insanely talented, but hes not learned to temper his aggression.
To be fair, that comes with experience and took hamilton a while to learn too.
There have been quite a few occasions the last couple of years when things have happened and Hamilton has kept his cool. I have thought to myself a few years ago he would have panicked and tried to force something to happen there but this time he didn’t.
Like today moved up the field early on then made a mistake dropping back. A younger Hamilton would have possibly gone crazy and start to hammer the car trying to get the places back, possibly making mistake in the process. Not anymore kept his cool accepted the situation waited for another opportunity.
Maybe Max will learn this stuff maybe he won’t ultimately that’s up to him. As much as it pains me I think he has it in him to be comparable if he learns. Of course this all depends on him getting in the best car. Like Hamilton though if Any team wants a top driver he will surely be on the short list.
Bo_apex said:
Agree with this.
The RedBull has unstable aero / downforce all season and that was really shining through in Instanbul
Will be interesting to see how SV does at Racing Point / Aston next season - I thought Vettel was all washed out
Really?The RedBull has unstable aero / downforce all season and that was really shining through in Instanbul
Will be interesting to see how SV does at Racing Point / Aston next season - I thought Vettel was all washed out
it didnt shine through in qualifying....funny that, its almost like this aero imbalance has a mind of its own
Of course i wouldnt expect you to admit Max just made a mistake by getting himself into a blind spot behind perez so he ran wide onto the paint.
doesnt matter if you had a truck load of downforce, you make a mistake and run wide there, youll end up in the weeds.
ntiz said:
I think sometimes it easy to forget how far Hamilton has come over the last 10 years.
There have been quite a few occasions the last couple of years when things have happened and Hamilton has kept his cool. I have thought to myself a few years ago he would have panicked and tried to force something to happen there but this time he didn’t.
Like today moved up the field early on then made a mistake dropping back. A younger Hamilton would have possibly gone crazy and start to hammer the car trying to get the places back, possibly making mistake in the process. Not anymore kept his cool accepted the situation waited for another opportunity.
Maybe Max will learn this stuff maybe he won’t ultimately that’s up to him. As much as it pains me I think he has it in him to be comparable if he learns. Of course this all depends on him getting in the best car. Like Hamilton though if Any team wants a top driver he will surely be on the short list.
agree with this. i do hope Max learns because he has the raw speed there. There have been quite a few occasions the last couple of years when things have happened and Hamilton has kept his cool. I have thought to myself a few years ago he would have panicked and tried to force something to happen there but this time he didn’t.
Like today moved up the field early on then made a mistake dropping back. A younger Hamilton would have possibly gone crazy and start to hammer the car trying to get the places back, possibly making mistake in the process. Not anymore kept his cool accepted the situation waited for another opportunity.
Maybe Max will learn this stuff maybe he won’t ultimately that’s up to him. As much as it pains me I think he has it in him to be comparable if he learns. Of course this all depends on him getting in the best car. Like Hamilton though if Any team wants a top driver he will surely be on the short list.
“Hamilton always has race winning machinery” is a paradox.
By winning in any car, no matter the quality of the car, you get people saying it’s a race winning car so it’s less impressive.
In 2009 Hamilton won two races on high downforce circuits when Kovaleinen didn’t. Even more impressively this was the double diffuser year which McLaren didn’t have. That’s not the car making that happen.
In 2013 the Mercedes was about the 3rd best car. Rosberg won with it as well, but he is also a fantastic driver.
By winning in any car, no matter the quality of the car, you get people saying it’s a race winning car so it’s less impressive.
In 2009 Hamilton won two races on high downforce circuits when Kovaleinen didn’t. Even more impressively this was the double diffuser year which McLaren didn’t have. That’s not the car making that happen.
In 2013 the Mercedes was about the 3rd best car. Rosberg won with it as well, but he is also a fantastic driver.
F20CN16 said:
“Hamilton always has race winning machinery” is a paradox.
By winning in any car, no matter the quality of the car, you get people saying it’s a race winning car so it’s less impressive.
In 2009 Hamilton won two races on high downforce circuits when Kovaleinen didn’t. Even more impressively this was the double diffuser year which McLaren didn’t have. That’s not the car making that happen.
In 2013 the Mercedes was about the 3rd best car. Rosberg won with it as well, but he is also a fantastic driver.
That's the race-winning car that came in, on average, in 7.5 place in Turkey.By winning in any car, no matter the quality of the car, you get people saying it’s a race winning car so it’s less impressive.
In 2009 Hamilton won two races on high downforce circuits when Kovaleinen didn’t. Even more impressively this was the double diffuser year which McLaren didn’t have. That’s not the car making that happen.
In 2013 the Mercedes was about the 3rd best car. Rosberg won with it as well, but he is also a fantastic driver.
It's true that the Merc is class of the field, but the suggestion that anyone could drive it to 7 WDCs is nonsense.
The thought that occurred to me today is that we are living through the Good Old Days. People will, according to the Bard, think their name accursed they were not here to witness these events. We'll ignore the bit about holding your manhood.
I visited Mansell's museum and was shown around by his PA. Pleasant womam. She asked if I'd ever seen him racing. I ran through the races I'd seen him in, particularly the European at Brands when he got his first win. She said, 'I wish I could have seen him race in those days.'
WickerBill said:
indeed.
dont get me wrong, i think Max has as much raw speed as hamilton. he is insanely talented, but hes not learned to temper his aggression.
To be fair, that comes with experience and took hamilton a while to learn too.
Did it? When? Controlled aggression is what Hamilton has had from the start and why he was staggeringly consistent out-of-the-box in 2007 and such measured aggression is probably what win him the gp2 championship. He's come a cropper of others' aggression like Masaa and Maldonado, but I struggle to think of a period when his aggression shafted him anywhere near as much as it has Max.dont get me wrong, i think Max has as much raw speed as hamilton. he is insanely talented, but hes not learned to temper his aggression.
To be fair, that comes with experience and took hamilton a while to learn too.
They're just different personalities.
WickerBill said:
Bo_apex said:
Agree with this.
The RedBull has unstable aero / downforce all season and that was really shining through in Instanbul
Will be interesting to see how SV does at Racing Point / Aston next season - I thought Vettel was all washed out
Really?The RedBull has unstable aero / downforce all season and that was really shining through in Instanbul
Will be interesting to see how SV does at Racing Point / Aston next season - I thought Vettel was all washed out
it didnt shine through in qualifying....funny that, its almost like this aero imbalance has a mind of its own
Of course i wouldnt expect you to admit Max just made a mistake by getting himself into a blind spot behind perez so he ran wide onto the paint.
doesnt matter if you had a truck load of downforce, you make a mistake and run wide there, youll end up in the weeds.
Yes Max is always on the edge which makes for great entertainment
mattikake said:
WickerBill said:
indeed.
dont get me wrong, i think Max has as much raw speed as hamilton. he is insanely talented, but hes not learned to temper his aggression.
To be fair, that comes with experience and took hamilton a while to learn too.
Did it? When? Controlled aggression is what Hamilton has had from the start and why he was staggeringly consistent out-of-the-box in 2007 and such measured aggression is probably what win him the gp2 championship. He's come a cropper of others' aggression like Masaa and Maldonado, but I struggle to think of a period when his aggression shafted him anywhere near as much as it has Max.dont get me wrong, i think Max has as much raw speed as hamilton. he is insanely talented, but hes not learned to temper his aggression.
To be fair, that comes with experience and took hamilton a while to learn too.
They're just different personalities.
Max has the talent and the consistency. Composure... not so much! He has improved in that area and will continue to do so, but in the end his personality is what it is - he's never going to be a more focussed or controlled, composed driver than Lewis is he? He will evolve and improve but he'd need to be reincarnated as someone else to change his traits at a fundamental level.
As we saw yesterday, he drove very well and consistently - displayed endless skill. But it was a fraught race for everyone, and in the end he was one of those who spun. From that point on he went on a charge fuelled by frustration and as a result continued to make further mistakes. That's not in any way a criticism of Max, he's a great talent to watch and a very exciting driver. He's just limited in some areas where the likes of Lewis is not.
It must be tough for the rest. Lewis's style is to sit there when behind and wait for a mistake onto which he can capitalise. Doesn't seem to work so well when behind Lewis as he so rarely makes a mistake.
Max doesn't do that. He tries to outdrive everyone and as a consequence sometimes goes beyond the cars ability or his own. He just has belief that he's naturally quicker than his competitors and gets frustrated when following. It's a good thing if he knows when to exercise that skill and when to wait.
Max doesn't do that. He tries to outdrive everyone and as a consequence sometimes goes beyond the cars ability or his own. He just has belief that he's naturally quicker than his competitors and gets frustrated when following. It's a good thing if he knows when to exercise that skill and when to wait.
mattikake said:
Did it? When? Controlled aggression is what Hamilton has had from the start and why he was staggeringly consistent out-of-the-box in 2007 and such measured aggression is probably what win him the gp2 championship. He's come a cropper of others' aggression like Masaa and Maldonado, but I struggle to think of a period when his aggression shafted him anywhere near as much as it has Max.
They're just different personalities.
not even the biggest hamilton fan could claim lewis didnt have his moments early on.....granted they are nowhere near the scope of MaxThey're just different personalities.
Bo_apex said:
The track came to Mercedes, but Bottas doesn't deserve that seat.
Yes Max is always on the edge which makes for great entertainment
back to your usual hamilton looks great because bottas is rubbish argument, while completely ignoring the fact max looks great because albon is rubbish, or schumacher looked great because barichello was rubbish blah blah blah Yes Max is always on the edge which makes for great entertainment
always on the edge?....more often than not over it, onto the slippy paint and heading backwards. great entertainment indeed
LH really drove exceptionally yesterday, as did all the top four.
Max was amazing but wild and immature. His impatience was his undoing, however to follow the racing point into that corner, flat, with that grip and spray was the biggest display of brass balls seen in f1 for a long time
Max was amazing but wild and immature. His impatience was his undoing, however to follow the racing point into that corner, flat, with that grip and spray was the biggest display of brass balls seen in f1 for a long time
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