Driver protection

[ajprice]

A whole list of things absolutely did their job last weekend with Grosjean. Halo, carbon cell, HANS device, fireproofs, without any one of those it could have been very different for him. From what I understand, the burns to his foot/ankle are from his shoe getting stuck and coming off as he got out of the car. The burns to his hands from gloves being thin material so the drivers can still feel what's happening with the controls.

There must be something to partially protect the hands more though. They could make the gloves in the thicker material on the back of the hands and fingers, and maybe the palms too. That would leave the thinner material around the fingers and joints to still have full movement and feel. The thicker backs would be better against any flying gravel or debris hitting hands when they're driving, as happened to Gasly yesterday and another driver earlier in the season.

Would the halo still do its job if it was wider around the cockpit to give the driver a bigger hole to get out through in a situation like Grosjean's? The halo absolutely should stay now, moaning about ugliness is a non argument, but can a halo mk2 make a driver getting out any better without losing safety?

The third part they will be looking into is the seal on the fuel cell and if anything can be done with the forces involved to keep the fuel inside them. The cars are meant to break in two on the split between the engine and bulkhead behind the driver. Could they design cars so the fuel cell is part of the back half of the car?

[HustleRussell]

The FIA are working on new standards for garments but while the suit has been introduced the gloves haven’t yet. The new standard extends the fire resistance from 10 or 12 seconds to 20 IIRC.

[Getragdogleg]

I hated the halo until this accident. Now I can see its an important step to making this sport safer.

Without it Grosjean would be dead that much is clear.

[Drumroll]

The problem is that very few safety features that don't cause other issues/drawbacks. AFAIK one of the reasons the halo can't have a wider opening is it if it was wider it would allow a wheel to go into the "cockpit" (not all the way, but enough to hit a drivers helmet)

Whilst making gloves thicker at the back they tend to restrict the movement of the fingers.

Barriers work in different ways and so far there is not one that will work in all types of situations.

Edited by Drumroll on Saturday 5th December 18:32

[TheDeuce]

Halo with explosive bolts that can be triggered to detach remotely 2 or more seconds after a high g impact is detected?

Seems the only problem on this occasion was that the halo was still in the way after it had done its job.

Doubtless someone with more knowledge will be along soon to point out that the halo has to be permanently bonded etc..

[8Ace]

TheDeuce said:

Halo with explosive bolts that can be triggered to detach remotely 2 or more seconds after a high g impact is detected?

Seems the only problem on this occasion was that the halo was still in the way after it had done its job.

Doubtless someone with more knowledge will be along soon to point out that the halo has to be permanently bonded etc..

That's a very good idea.

[Dr Jekyll]

When was the last time an F1 car caught fire after a crash? Given that every crash has an impact and very few have fires, and impact protection also means the driver has a better chance of being conscious and mobile enough to escape the fire It seems to me that impact protection has a far higher payoff.

[Exige77]

8Ace said:

TheDeuce said:

Halo with explosive bolts that can be triggered to detach remotely 2 or more seconds after a high g impact is detected?

Seems the only problem on this occasion was that the halo was still in the way after it had done its job.

Doubtless someone with more knowledge will be along soon to point out that the halo has to be permanently bonded etc..

That's a very good idea.

Just need proper barriers then no need for explosive boots. Everything worked well except the barrier.

[robinessex]

Exige77 said:

8Ace said:

TheDeuce said:

Halo with explosive bolts that can be triggered to detach remotely 2 or more seconds after a high g impact is detected?

Seems the only problem on this occasion was that the halo was still in the way after it had done its job.

Doubtless someone with more knowledge will be along soon to point out that the halo has to be permanently bonded etc..

That's a very good idea.

Just need proper barriers then no need for explosive boots. Everything worked well except the barrier.

Agreed. The barrier should absorb the impact, and deflect the car. It looks as if that one split apart, not good.

[kambites]

It was a pretty freak accident where the car ended up embedded in the barrier with part of the barrier exactly on top of the halo opening. I think a detachable halo would create as many, if not more, problems than it solved.

Of course if there hadn't been a fire, there wouldn't have been a problem anyway, he could just have waited for extraction, and fires in modern F1 are extremely rare. If they're going to concentrate on some element of car safety in the aftermath of that crash, it'll be trying to prevent another fire.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 5th December 19:56

[Exige77]

Better to avoid the problem than try and solve it.

[DrDeAtH]

Exige77 said:

Just need proper barriers then no need for explosive boots. Everything worked well except the barrier.

The barrier in question has now been replaced with a tyre wall for this race

[Kraken]

robinessex said:

Agreed. The barrier should absorb the impact, and deflect the car. It looks as if that one split apart, not good.

You could run a thousand simulations of a car going off in that corner and probably not come up with a car hitting it at a perfect 90 degree angle let alone even hitting that barrier. Freak accidents happen and it's impossible to cover every single possibility.

[TheDeuce]

Exige77 said:

Better to avoid the problem than try and solve it.

So the solution is to cancel motorsport?

[Exige77]

TheDeuce said:

Exige77 said:

Better to avoid the problem than try and solve it.

So the solution is to cancel motorsport?

The “problem” that was being discussed was getting out in a fire and the halo getting in the way ?

Better to “avoid” having a fire rather then accepting their might be a fire and suggesting explosive bolts are the solution.

With appropriate barriers, we don’t see fires these days ?

Did you really think I was suggesting cancelling motorsport ?

[HustleRussell]

As long as you have a 210mph projectile with 100kgs of fuel on board and flammable fuel, oils and coolants coursing through its veins, combined with high voltage electrics and components reaching in excess of 1,000 Celsius, you have some risk of fire.

For me the most obvious and ‘easily’ tackled factor which must be improved here is the design and position of the barrier, which was essentially the reason the car was so dramatically torn up (causing the fire), and which then very nearly trapped Grosjean in the inferno. It also had the real potential to directly injure the drivers the impact.

The safety cell should not be penetrating and lodging itself into steel barriers.

The usage of multiple leaf ARMCO barriers with openings for television cameras should be scrutinised.

Where barriers are placed at a narrowing angle to the circuit they need to be reconsidered.

It was not only the barrier impeding Grosjean’s escape either. His foot was wedged under the brake pedal, and he damaged his foot and lost his boot getting out. Again this is probably to do with the extreme deceleration.

[TheDeuce]

Exige77 said:

TheDeuce said:

Exige77 said:

Better to avoid the problem than try and solve it.

So the solution is to cancel motorsport?

The “problem” that was being discussed was getting out in a fire and the halo getting in the way ?

Better to “avoid” having a fire rather then accepting their might be a fire and suggesting explosive bolts are the solution.

With appropriate barriers, we don’t see fires these days ?

Did you really think I was suggesting cancelling motorsport ?

No but I thought you were suggesting that not crashing in the first place was the solution - which is true but would pretty much rule out racing.

Surely whatever the barriers there will be a background risk of a freak incident leading to fire and/or becoming trapped in the car.

[The Moose]

Exige77 said:

Better to avoid the problem than try and solve it.

You mean don’t let Grosjean race anymore?